I hate wolves. JUST hate them

[wolfbait]

Come to the Methow where no one is watchin, just ask Fitkin, he's only seen one or two wolves How do you spell dumbchit starting with F?

[wolfbait]

Posting photos of dogs killed by wolves is exactly the sort of argument I expected from this lot.    It's an emotionally driven argument.

Hunting dogs die. It's something my Dad warned me about as a kid when we contemplated taking the family dog out as a rabbit hunter and also something several hardcore bird dog guys have said to me over the years. I accept it.

As an upland hunter I'm sensitive to the risks, it's why I want the right to defend myself and my dogs from wolves if, God forbid, an encounter occurred. Good gun dogs are expensive to buy and train and there is no price on the emotional attachment if they are a family pet.

But wolf or no wolf you always roll the dice when taking man's best friend hunting. People who can't handle the fact that their dog might die from any number of causes while hunting should probably not be hunting with dogs.

Have you watched a dog get killed in the field?  I watched one get stretched by a pair of coyotes before I could get to her.  It's damn emotional and I suspect it's easy for you to sit back and think "we all take risks when we turn loose" ect... but I gurantee if you watched your pet/companion/hunting partner get wiped out, you would be emotional about the topic too.

Wolves kill dogs when the opportunity exists.  It's a topic that we will be dealing with for a while and not one to be dismissed easily.  I have not lost a hound to wolves yet, but I know it could happen the next time I turn loose.  Let's try to be somewhat sympathetic for thier loss.

Thats fine an dandy WAcoyotye, where is your sypathy for the the Methow valley deer? or the cows and calves that WDF&Wolves kill, and their lies that follow? What happened to your idea of more habitat?

I agree with AC, leave your emotions on your trigger pull, and deal with the wolf issue without any emotion.

Take Me and the Methow Valley as an example, in the past I showed my true feelings, fought like hell to try an make people understand. It did no good. I have watched as WDFW's wolves slaughter the deer each winter and summer while one of their prize employees lie.

I don't have any more emotion to give , I have seen what the people of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming have seen. A lying USFWS and a lying WDFW and many wolves.

Welcome to Washington

[bearpaw]

Rich Landers. Ha there's a reliable source. I have shook my head at that guys columns for years. I as well as many others I know have thought that he has been in the pockets of both Idaho and Washington F&G for years. That guy will say anything they want him to in order to maintain the almost exclusive reporting (for outdoors) for this entire area. Now let's read between the lines of his article. Wolf populations are down but breeding packs are up. While possible just doesn't make sense to me. In order for more packs to be established you generally need more wolves. This is likely due to established packs getting to big to be able to feed themselves so they branch off and start new packs. (Doesn't sound like a reduction to me)  At the same time that Idaho's population is supposedly declining Washington's is going thru the roof. Coincidence? I don't think so. And let's for arguments sake say that maybe it's all legit. If there are more breeding packs in Idaho than before do you suppose that will then increase the population. My guess is yes. Let's recap shall we. Idaho's population has grown every year with one in question and that particular year has seen a massive increase in sightings in Washington (which is very close you know). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here. STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID.

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/idaho-wolf-tally-shows-percent-decline-in/article_1f5e95de-9c92-11e2-b117-0019bb2963f4.html

I guess the Missoulian is in the pocket of folks too.  I think you are trying to make a connection between dots that doesn't exist with the "conclusions" you've come to.

Any new wolf population will go through a period of nearly exponential growth.  Every state with a colonizing wolf populations has experienced this, so why would it take a rocket scientist to assume Washington would too?

Idaho's population has been decreasing since 2009.  Yes, pack numbers are up which simply means you have a larger number of packs that contain a smaller number of wolves.  You can try and draw whatever parallels you wish.

The only reason Idaho's wolf population increase has been slowed is because many Idahoans opened year around season after Judge Malloy shut down wolf hunting the first time. It's all the extra wolves that are being killed that is slowing the growth of the population. 

The problem in Idaho is that wolves in the less inhabited areas are not being controlled, so certain herds are still in trouble. Herds in more populated areas may have a chance because locals are waging war on wolves.

It saddens me that the people have had to take wolf management into their own hands to save the herds, that is not in the best interest of game management.

[Elkaholic daWg]

Just thought I'd throw this up over here also, since this thread gets so much traffic.......


Wenatchee Pack

..... Tonight King 5 has Gary Chiittam Up  what looks Like near Wheeler Ridge or the Stemilt Basin camping, looking  to call the Bastiges in so he can be thrilled about thier presence! There is a story from tonight on their website and I'm sure they will have more tomorrow, especially if they get their wish and get an answer or see them. Never did care much for Chittam and this just made it worse. Stupid Pugetropolans!!

[JLS]

Rich Landers. Ha there's a reliable source. I have shook my head at that guys columns for years. I as well as many others I know have thought that he has been in the pockets of both Idaho and Washington F&G for years. That guy will say anything they want him to in order to maintain the almost exclusive reporting (for outdoors) for this entire area. Now let's read between the lines of his article. Wolf populations are down but breeding packs are up. While possible just doesn't make sense to me. In order for more packs to be established you generally need more wolves. This is likely due to established packs getting to big to be able to feed themselves so they branch off and start new packs. (Doesn't sound like a reduction to me)  At the same time that Idaho's population is supposedly declining Washington's is going thru the roof. Coincidence? I don't think so. And let's for arguments sake say that maybe it's all legit. If there are more breeding packs in Idaho than before do you suppose that will then increase the population. My guess is yes. Let's recap shall we. Idaho's population has grown every year with one in question and that particular year has seen a massive increase in sightings in Washington (which is very close you know). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here. STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID.

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/idaho-wolf-tally-shows-percent-decline-in/article_1f5e95de-9c92-11e2-b117-0019bb2963f4.html

I guess the Missoulian is in the pocket of folks too.  I think you are trying to make a connection between dots that doesn't exist with the "conclusions" you've come to.

Any new wolf population will go through a period of nearly exponential growth.  Every state with a colonizing wolf populations has experienced this, so why would it take a rocket scientist to assume Washington would too?

Idaho's population has been decreasing since 2009.  Yes, pack numbers are up which simply means you have a larger number of packs that contain a smaller number of wolves.  You can try and draw whatever parallels you wish.

The only reason Idaho's wolf population increase has been slowed is because many Idahoans opened year around season after Judge Malloy shut down wolf hunting the first time. It's all the extra wolves that are being killed that is slowing the growth of the population. 

The problem in Idaho is that wolves in the less inhabited areas are not being controlled, so certain herds are still in trouble. Herds in more populated areas may have a chance because locals are waging war on wolves.

It saddens me that the people have had to take wolf management into their own hands to save the herds, that is not in the best interest of game management.

Habitat is a very pressing problem that is difficult to separate away from the issue or perception of wolf impacts.  Much of the habitat in northern Idaho has been decreasing in quality over the last 100 years.  Look at how much elk numbers have increased in the Palouse zone, which is a mix of agricultural and private timberlands.  Yet at the same time in the Lochsa, Selway and upper Clearwater elk numbers are remaining depressed and have for a very long time from before wolves.

I'm not saying wolves aren't having an impact, but I believe the biggest impact is habitat quality.  Following the fires of the early 1900's the upper Selway had one of the largest elk herds in North America.

[bearpaw]

Rich Landers. Ha there's a reliable source. I have shook my head at that guys columns for years. I as well as many others I know have thought that he has been in the pockets of both Idaho and Washington F&G for years. That guy will say anything they want him to in order to maintain the almost exclusive reporting (for outdoors) for this entire area. Now let's read between the lines of his article. Wolf populations are down but breeding packs are up. While possible just doesn't make sense to me. In order for more packs to be established you generally need more wolves. This is likely due to established packs getting to big to be able to feed themselves so they branch off and start new packs. (Doesn't sound like a reduction to me)  At the same time that Idaho's population is supposedly declining Washington's is going thru the roof. Coincidence? I don't think so. And let's for arguments sake say that maybe it's all legit. If there are more breeding packs in Idaho than before do you suppose that will then increase the population. My guess is yes. Let's recap shall we. Idaho's population has grown every year with one in question and that particular year has seen a massive increase in sightings in Washington (which is very close you know). Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here. STOP DRINKING THE KOOL-AID.

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/idaho-wolf-tally-shows-percent-decline-in/article_1f5e95de-9c92-11e2-b117-0019bb2963f4.html

I guess the Missoulian is in the pocket of folks too.  I think you are trying to make a connection between dots that doesn't exist with the "conclusions" you've come to.

Any new wolf population will go through a period of nearly exponential growth.  Every state with a colonizing wolf populations has experienced this, so why would it take a rocket scientist to assume Washington would too?

Idaho's population has been decreasing since 2009.  Yes, pack numbers are up which simply means you have a larger number of packs that contain a smaller number of wolves.  You can try and draw whatever parallels you wish.

The only reason Idaho's wolf population increase has been slowed is because many Idahoans opened year around season after Judge Malloy shut down wolf hunting the first time. It's all the extra wolves that are being killed that is slowing the growth of the population. 

The problem in Idaho is that wolves in the less inhabited areas are not being controlled, so certain herds are still in trouble. Herds in more populated areas may have a chance because locals are waging war on wolves.

It saddens me that the people have had to take wolf management into their own hands to save the herds, that is not in the best interest of game management.

Habitat is a very pressing problem that is difficult to separate away from the issue or perception of wolf impacts.  Much of the habitat in northern Idaho has been decreasing in quality over the last 100 years.  Look at how much elk numbers have increased in the Palouse zone, which is a mix of agricultural and private timberlands.  Yet at the same time in the Lochsa, Selway and upper Clearwater elk numbers are remaining depressed and have for a very long time from before wolves.

I'm not saying wolves aren't having an impact, but I believe the biggest impact is habitat quality.  Following the fires of the early 1900's the upper Selway had one of the largest elk herds in North America.

Typical agency style response,  blame everything but the wolves, shift the blame to anything other than the real problem, a lack of predator management. I agree that habitat is a concern, but please explain the YNP elk herd. No habitat control there by humans, yet until man introduced wolves there were strong elk/moose herds before the fire and after the fire. Now that man introduced wolves they have reduced the herds, the wolves are eating each other and moving to new areas, the YNP has far fewer ungulates or wolves because of a lack of management.   

[turkeyfeather]

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

[JLS]

Habitat is a very pressing problem that is difficult to separate away from the issue or perception of wolf impacts.  Much of the habitat in northern Idaho has been decreasing in quality over the last 100 years.  Look at how much elk numbers have increased in the Palouse zone, which is a mix of agricultural and private timberlands.  Yet at the same time in the Lochsa, Selway and upper Clearwater elk numbers are remaining depressed and have for a very long time from before wolves.

I'm not saying wolves aren't having an impact, but I believe the biggest impact is habitat quality.  Following the fires of the early 1900's the upper Selway had one of the largest elk herds in North America.

Typical agency style response,  blame everything but the wolves, shift the blame to anything other than the real problem, a lack of predator management. I agree that habitat is a concern, but please explain the YNP elk herd. No habitat control there by humans, yet until man introduced wolves there were strong elk/moose herds before the fire and after the fire. Now that man introduced wolves they have reduced the herds, the wolves are eating each other and moving to new areas, the YNP has far fewer ungulates or wolves because of a lack of management.   

Is that obvious enough for you now?  I'm not shifting blame simply because I don't agree with you, I have repeatedly explained my stance and we obviously differ in our opinions and beliefs.  I don't feel the need to mock you, sorry that you do. 

I've explained my views and observations on the northern YNP herd to you and you will believe what you want to believe.  I'm good with that.  The reality is you had a huge population spike following the '88 fires, and then years of hunters shooting the snot out of the elk when they came out of the park, followed by an exponential growth of wolf numbers.  If the population is so dismal, why is that particular elk management unit within acceptable parameters in the state of Montana?  There are no emergency closures for elk hunting in this area.  People still continue to come from across the country to hunt it.  Maybe the reality is that it's not so bad after all.

[JLS]

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

Your friend may very well be correct.  I am speaking in a broader sense in regards to the whole Selway, Lochsa, and Clearwater basins.  Do some reading.  The upper Selway boasted one of the nations largest elk herds following the huge fires in the early 1900s.  Much of the habitat is a ceanothus jungle that is worthless to elk.  My humble opinion is that the localized decline your friends are seeing is a combination of continued habitat degredation and predators.

Why are elk numbers so robust in the Palouse zone?

[brianb231]

http://kng5.tv/10U56uq

Ridiculous!

[turkeyfeather]

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

Your friend may very well be correct.  I am speaking in a broader sense in regards to the whole Selway, Lochsa, and Clearwater basins.  Do some reading.  The upper Selway boasted one of the nations largest elk herds following the huge fires in the early 1900s.  Much of the habitat is a ceanothus jungle that is worthless to elk.  My humble opinion is that the localized decline your friends are seeing is a combination of continued habitat degredation and predators.

Why are elk numbers so robust in the Palouse zone?

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

Your friend may very well be correct.  I am speaking in a broader sense in regards to the whole Selway, Lochsa, and Clearwater basins.  Do some reading.  The upper Selway boasted one of the nations largest elk herds following the huge fires in the early 1900s.  Much of the habitat is a ceanothus jungle that is worthless to elk.  My humble opinion is that the localized decline your friends are seeing is a combination of continued habitat degredation and predators.

Why are elk numbers so robust in the Palouse zone?

Absolutely has nothing to do with habitat in his area. It hasn't changed. But I know you will never admit that the wolves could actually be the problem. You have to stop believing everything F&G tells you. They have proven to be crooked liars.

[JLS]

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

Your friend may very well be correct.  I am speaking in a broader sense in regards to the whole Selway, Lochsa, and Clearwater basins.  Do some reading.  The upper Selway boasted one of the nations largest elk herds following the huge fires in the early 1900s.  Much of the habitat is a ceanothus jungle that is worthless to elk.  My humble opinion is that the localized decline your friends are seeing is a combination of continued habitat degredation and predators.

Why are elk numbers so robust in the Palouse zone?

Not exactly all correct there JLS. Just so happens I have a friend that hunts the Clearwater area. He and his family have hunted this land for over 20 years. He says that the elk herds were very healthy until the wolves moved in. And that they started to really decline about 4-5 years ago.

Your friend may very well be correct.  I am speaking in a broader sense in regards to the whole Selway, Lochsa, and Clearwater basins.  Do some reading.  The upper Selway boasted one of the nations largest elk herds following the huge fires in the early 1900s.  Much of the habitat is a ceanothus jungle that is worthless to elk.  My humble opinion is that the localized decline your friends are seeing is a combination of continued habitat degredation and predators.

Why are elk numbers so robust in the Palouse zone?

Absolutely has nothing to do with habitat in his area. It hasn't changed. But I know you will never admit that the wolves could actually be the problem. You have to stop believing everything F&G tells you. They have proven to be crooked liars.

I've met several of the COs in the Clearwater region.  They hunt just like you and I.  The echo the SAME sentiments that I have.  I met a retired IDFG wildlife manager (pre wolf era) elk hunting in the Lochsa one year.  He also said the same thing.  I guess all of these passionate hunters are still crooked liars.  Glad you have an open mind and don't pigeon hole people.

And for the record, I will never try and tell anyone that wolves do no have an impact.  Ever.  So I don't have a clue what you are talking about me admitting that wolves could be a problem.  However, I also believe there are very few cases where they are the ONLY problem.

Habitat is always changing.  If it's not changing for the better it's obviously changing for the worst.

You still keep dodging my question about the Palouse zone.

[turkeyfeather]

I didn't comment on it cause I have never hunted it nor has anyone I know. I will only comment on what I know or the few trusted hunting partners I have know. And I disagree on the habitat. There was little talk about drastically disappearing ungulate herds until a few year's ago. Which oddly enough coincides with the proliferation of wolves. I suppose its always possible that the habitat started to decline at the very same time but it is an odd coincidence isn't it. I don't think its a coincidence at all.

[turkeyfeather]

And again your getting your info from state officials who have a vested interest in feeding you a line of crap. I'm out for tonight. Good luck trying to convince people of you line of thinking. We all know better.

[JLS]

And again your getting your info from state officials who have a vested interest in feeding you a line of crap. I'm out for tonight. Good luck trying to convince people of you line of thinking. We all know better.

Wow.  You can make this blanket statement about people you have never met?  People who are just as passionate, if not more, about elk hunting than many of us here?  People who I've gotten to know as friends with a common interest in hunting elk?  How brave of you to stand behind an anonymous name and label them crooked liars.   

I am in no way anticipating that I will convince you of anything.  You know everything apparently, maybe you should go run Idaho Fish and Game.  Then people like yourself, who think they know better than you could label you a crooked liar.