Scouting questions, new to hunting.

[wooltie]

Hi everyone,

Started big game hunting three years ago and am devoting most of my free time to scouting/hunting this year, instead of other hobbies.  Started scouting a month ago and have several questions.  First off, thanks to everyone on these boards for all the great info.  Secondly, I'm not looking for honey holes just some practical guidance.  I wouldn't hunt a spot even if someone told me about it--for me, being in the woods and finding animals on my own merits is where the fun is.  I am already putting miles on and enjoying venturing out into the woods--I just want to report some of the stuff I'm seeing and heed anyone's advise, to have the best chance at a successful hunt.

I'm no stranger to the outdoors.  Been fishing these areas for 15+ years, just decided to start hunting too, so I understand the concepts, I just need to apply them in the field and learn through experience.

I plan to day hunt the westside during Modern on Hancock land, and probably go high hunt in the Skokomish wilderness.  As I gain experience, I plan to venture onto Forest land for multiple day hunts.  I'm in shape, and staying in shape, so hiking for miles is not an issue.  I mountain bike on Hancock land.  I also have a kiddy trailer outfitted to haul gear/game.  Blacktail trophy tactics II is a great book.

1.) Seeing more bear tracks than deer tracks, perhaps cause they are more noticable.  Do bear / deer share the same living space i.e. bears concentrated in one area do not deter deer?

2.) Sometimes I find tracks and scat, other times just tracks.  I read that animals crap along food routes, and while tracks are good in general, does the presense or lack of scat indicate the type of trail and/or food sources nearby?

3.) Does elevation affect blacktails when no snow is present?  Meaning, are the odds of them being at 3000' or 1500' the same, all else being equal (habitat)?

4.) Does anyone know how the gate key system works on Hancock lands?  I called Hancock and all they said was your keys work at the gates indicated on the map.  Since there are many gates, do keys work only at certain gates, or do they divy up the gates randomly to spread people around?

I'm biking 4-12 miles into hancock lands to clear cuts I've identified and walking through the cuts and 50-100 yds into the timber edges looking for sign and trails.  Looking for areas away from roads.  Right now I'm looking for areas concentrated with sign, and just learning as I go.  Saw a few does, but most of my time is spent mid-day; I haven't been up at a place at sundown.

I'm kinda faced with a choice for this year: do I want to bike for 2 hours to some clear cuts, or do I bike for 30-60 minutes to areas that look appealing on the topo map (mosty covered in timber) and search those areas for clearings, sign, thinning of vegitation.  Overall I want to get away from people, and find animals so if two hours and and 10 miles does that, then so be it.  But I bet I'd have just as good luck going into the timber 3-4 miles from my car instead of 12+--but that depends on whether someone has a key to the gate I bike behind.

Thanks guys for any info.

I found this area:  a bench situated between two draws, bordered by timber.  The draws are to the right and left of the photo.  Second photo of a different cut.

[MtnMuley]

I don't hunt blacktail and can't answer your questions due to lack of experience in that field, but I will say this:  The way you went about being polite and asking your questions, should lead to many helpful answers.  Happy hunting, and good luck.

[Bookworm007]

Alright I will answer what I can and leave the rest for our other members:

1.) Seeing more bear tracks than deer tracks, perhaps cause they are more noticable.  Do bear / deer share the same living space i.e. bears concentrated in one area do not deter deer?

2.) Sometimes I find tracks and scat, other times just tracks.  I read that animals crap along food routes, and while tracks are good in general, does the presense or lack of scat indicate the type of trail and/or food sources nearby?

3.) Does elevation affect blacktails when no snow is present?  Meaning, are the odds of them being at 3000' or 1500' the same, all else being equal (habitat)?

4.) Does anyone know how the gate key system works on Hancock lands?  I called Hancock and all they said was your keys work at the gates indicated on the map.  Since there are many gates, do keys work only at certain gates, or do they divy up the gates randomly to spread people around?

I'm biking 4-12 miles into hancock lands to clear cuts I've identified and walking through the cuts and 50-100 yds into the timber edges looking for sign and trails.  Looking for areas away from roads.  Right now I'm looking for areas concentrated with sign, and just learning as I go.  Saw a few does, but most of my time is spent mid-day; I haven't been up at a place at sundown.

I'm kinda faced with a choice for this year: do I want to bike for 2 hours to some clear cuts, or do I bike for 30-60 minutes to areas that look appealing on the topo map (mosty covered in timber) and search those areas for clearings, sign, thinning of vegitation.  Overall I want to get away from people, and find animals so if two hours and and 10 miles does that, then so be it.  But I bet I'd have just as good luck going into the timber 3-4 miles from my car instead of 12+--but that depends on whether someone has a key to the gate I bike behind.

Thanks guys for any info.

I found this area:  a bench situated between two draws, bordered by timber.  The draws are to the right and left of the photo.  Second photo of a different cut.

1.) Yes bears and deer will share the same area, I have never seen them standing next to each other, but out in the woods have seen bear and deer is the same spots at different times. Also take a stroll down to the trail camera forum. You can learn alot about animal habits from the pictures people post.

2.)Not sure on this one, all I can say is that I have only seen deer and elk take a dump when they are moving slowing and grazing, if they are moving with more urgency they don't. So if you figure out that one let me know.

3.) Where I hunt in the higher elevation the vegetation goes away and so do the deer, but in the lower areas from sea level to about 3000 ft I have seen deer of the same density given similar habitat.

4.) I know nothing about the gates hopefully someone else can help you there. I hunt all state land so when I run into a gate it usually stays locked.

As for clear cut vs timber I would choose timber. You have the advantage of starting your scouting early in the season and can use that to find some more out of the way spots. Last year my brother and I did a similar thing as you woke up at o'dark thirty and hoofed it up higher in the hills than we though anyone else would be willing to go, but we still ran into other hunters. Pretty much if you are willing to bike 10 miles you better believe some one else is will to do the same. And clear cuts are just giant magnets for hunters. They are effective but if you have the time to scout you can find some good spots and just let everyone else push the deer to you.

Hopefully some of that helped! 

[Mongo Hunter]

Alright I will answer what I can and leave the rest for our other members:

1.) Seeing more bear tracks than deer tracks, perhaps cause they are more noticable.  Do bear / deer share the same living space i.e. bears concentrated in one area do not deter deer?

2.) Sometimes I find tracks and scat, other times just tracks.  I read that animals crap along food routes, and while tracks are good in general, does the presense or lack of scat indicate the type of trail and/or food sources nearby?

3.) Does elevation affect blacktails when no snow is present?  Meaning, are the odds of them being at 3000' or 1500' the same, all else being equal (habitat)?

4.) Does anyone know how the gate key system works on Hancock lands?  I called Hancock and all they said was your keys work at the gates indicated on the map.  Since there are many gates, do keys work only at certain gates, or do they divy up the gates randomly to spread people around?

I'm biking 4-12 miles into hancock lands to clear cuts I've identified and walking through the cuts and 50-100 yds into the timber edges looking for sign and trails.  Looking for areas away from roads.  Right now I'm looking for areas concentrated with sign, and just learning as I go.  Saw a few does, but most of my time is spent mid-day; I haven't been up at a place at sundown.

I'm kinda faced with a choice for this year: do I want to bike for 2 hours to some clear cuts, or do I bike for 30-60 minutes to areas that look appealing on the topo map (mosty covered in timber) and search those areas for clearings, sign, thinning of vegitation.  Overall I want to get away from people, and find animals so if two hours and and 10 miles does that, then so be it.  But I bet I'd have just as good luck going into the timber 3-4 miles from my car instead of 12+--but that depends on whether someone has a key to the gate I bike behind.

Thanks guys for any info.

I found this area:  a bench situated between two draws, bordered by timber.  The draws are to the right and left of the photo.  Second photo of a different cut.

1.) Yes bears and deer will share the same area, I have never seen them standing next to each other, but out in the woods have seen bear and deer is the same spots at different times. Also take a stroll down to the trail camera forum. You can learn alot about animal habits from the pictures people post.

2.)Not sure on this one, all I can say is that I have only seen deer and elk take a dump when they are moving slowing and grazing, if they are moving with more urgency they don't. So if you figure out that one let me know.

3.) Where I hunt in the higher elevation the vegetation goes away and so do the deer, but in the lower areas from sea level to about 3000 ft I have seen deer of the same density given similar habitat.

4.) I know nothing about the gates hopefully someone else can help you there. I hunt all state land so when I run into a gate it usually stays locked.

As for clear cut vs timber I would choose timber. You have the advantage of starting your scouting early in the season and can use that to find some more out of the way spots. Last year my brother and I did a similar thing as you woke up at o'dark thirty and hoofed it up higher in the hills than we though anyone else would be willing to go, but we still ran into other hunters. Pretty much if you are willing to bike 10 miles you better believe some one else is will to do the same. And clear cuts are just giant magnets for hunters. They are effective but if you have the time to scout you can find some good spots and just let everyone else push the deer to you.

Hopefully some of that helped! 

 

I would also add don't start your timber hunts at the edge of clear cuts, there are some major idiots out there and despite wearing orange they may take a shot at you or by you. not super common and it SHOULDENT happen but I have heard it can. sounds like you are on the right track though.

[wooltie]

Thanks everyone for your input.

I hear that--10 miles up and down on a bike then 2 miles pushing the bike uphill just plain sucks. 

I think clear cuts appeal to many hunters because they are accessible and "easy" to hunt. 

Time is an issue for me as well.  If given eight hours, I would rather spend more time scouting an area (exploring close timber) than traveling to an area (12 miles to clear cuts).  I get the impression that fewer hunters venture into the timber--and for good reason; some of it is just plain nasty, but big bucks hide in the thick stuff according to much of the literature I've read.

In Tropy Blacktails II, the author commented about how nonsensical it was for so many hunters flock to clear cuts and ignore the timber, and chances are you'll see very few big bucks.  That kinda stuck with me.  I can see being in a cut in the morning/evening.

I think I ought to identify areas on the topo map covered in timber, then venture out to see how thick it is.  Be nice to find some trails, sign, then a thinning/opening convergence area.  I plan on close range shots, like 50 yds or less.

[Bookworm007]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Topo maps and google earth is a great way to start, then it is time to start hitting the dirt. You also might look into getting a trail camera or two. It helps gauge what caliber of animals you have in an area.


[/quote]


I would also add don't start your timber hunts at the edge of clear cuts, there are some major idiots out there and despite wearing orange they may take a shot at you or by you. not super common and it SHOULDENT happen but I have heard it can. sounds like you are on the right track though.
[/quote]

 

There are way too many trigger happy folks out there another reason it is nice to get away from the masses. Also even though you have a trailer for your bike i'm not sure it would be much fun to go down hill with 150 lbs of deer pushing you down the hill.

[pope]

I think you're going about it the right way and the book you are reading will tell you everything you need to know. As far as going 10 miles behind a locked gate, are you sure you need to go that far? My experience is that the number of people diminishes greatly after the first mile, and most just walk roads and glass clear-cuts, then go home complaining about a lack of deer. Many clear-cut areas become so dry by summer's end they will see very little deer traffic. At lower elevation, the deer you see in clear-cut areas in early summer won't be far away in October, so the trick is to figure out where they go. The best time to do that is immediately after your season ends. Look for a swampy area below NW and NE facing hill sides. Walk the edge of that swampy area and look for areas with mixed conifers and deciduous trees, with small openings that allow light to support growth below the canopy. Look for blackberry bushes. And if you find something like I described adjacent to larger clear-cuts, that's where deer are likely found during October.

[wooltie]

Thanks Pope.

Possibly getting away from people / activity and hunting young clear cuts were the only reasons for going 10+ miles behind gates.  Believe me, I'm in shaped but I'd rather bike a shorter distance and focus on the hunting rather than commuting 2+ hrs--if I don't need to go that far.

I can hunt a huge drainage riddled with creeks and swamps that wind around / inbetween hills.  Elevation difference between grounds and hill peaks ranges 200-800 ft.  This area contains older clear cuts mixed with timber.  I know deer / bear habitate this large area; I just need to put boots on the ground and explore the timber to find thinning areas and trails.

[pope]

I think you can find clear-cut areas 10 miles back where the deer are less jumpy, due to a lack of human activity. When I first began hunting, I'd find areas like that in June, with so many deer happily feeding in clear cuts. And this is in a GMU that supposedly "holds no deer". Plenty of bucks too, but as the summer moved on, we'd see fewer and fewer. And when the bucks lost their velvet, they disappeared (as did most does).

I formed the opinion that it wasn't human activity pressuring these deer into a clandestine existence, because NOBODY scouted or hunted back there. That's when I read a few books and figured out why the deer "disappear" from clear-cut areas in late summer. Too much sun, too little water = no food. Then again, my only shot opportunity came the first day of late buck in 2012. I was done for the day and on the way out when I saw a doe in a large clear cut. Then I saw a second, and then a superior buck stood up, one of the two studs we found over the summer. Buck fever got the best of me and I missed, but man was I excited.

Anyway, I'm also new to hunting and I've "struck out" my first three seasons. But I think that's part of the attraction, trying to figure out where to go based on how deer behave. It is far more challenging than I imagined and that is probably why I like it.

[trophyhunt]

lot's of good advise, the only thing that I'm wondering about is, where are you going to find 10 or 12 miles of walk in only on Hancock land? And if you do find it, are you sure your really walking or riding 10 to 12 miles one way? I'm not saying you can't or wont do it but that is a long azz way to bike or hike each day. In Hancock your not able to stay the night, which sucks, so you have to walk or ride in everyday. I did it last year, it takes a toll and I was only going 5 miles a day (one way). You have the right idea and it sure looks like your starting out on the right foot, if you keep up with that ambition you'll be damn good in a few years!

[wooltie]

I wouldn't characterize this area of Hancock as "walk-in only"; I have a walk in permit, so I'm riding my bike up, and down, and back up, and up again on logging roads to access points of interest.  Most clear cuts are near some sort of road, whether a main road or a "road" within a series of clear cuts.  I know the Hancock lands there are accessible if you purchase a vehicle permit, I just wondered if that permit buys you access to ALL areas of Hancock land.

You need a key to pass either of the two gates behind which lies the areas I've been exploring.  Beyond the gates I passed a sign put up by the WDFW which reads "no motorized vehicles allow--even autos", but I suspect that rule no longer applies.  My original question was (cause the lady at Hancock couldn't answer it) does a key to access Hancock lands work on ALL gates or only a select few?  Supposedly Hancock provides a map detailing which gates your key works at when you purchase a vehicle permit.

Yes, per my garmin my last death march was 12 miles each way, and I walked 3 miles in da woods, for a total of 27 miles.  Took 2:15 just to get there.  Took 1 hour to get back to the car.

I know....it is A LOT to hump in and out for 4 or 5 days.

I know of another spot above 5 miles behind a gate, but I suspect hunters will be there as well, although this spot is accessible via foot or bike only.

That's why I'm leaning towards biking 3-5 one way and exploring the timber (based upon topo features) instead of going to clear cuts on google.  Course the less distance the better (more time hunting).  I think the mass of hunters are less likely to venture into the woods than travel "far" to a clear cut.

And again, I want to get away from people.

This summer I plan to hike Mt. Rose by Lake Cushman and head off trail, to the west of Mt. Elinor in the Skokomish wilderness.  Going there in July to assess the terrain.

Hopefully make a high hunt in September if the terrain is generous.

So many freaking deer by that lake.

[pope]

Near here, some gates have a large, detailed map posted which shows gates having vehicle access and which gates are strictly nonmotorized. I emailed Hancock and they sent me a copy of that map free! You need to know whether vehicles are allowed. If they are, it is pointless to pedal 10 miles or even 3 miles behind such a gate because you're not giving yourself any advantage over guys who come in by truck. You're just getting a better workout, but they can probably get there first.

Also, with your walk-in-only permit, you can pedal behind the vehicle-accessed gates, and hunters with a vehicle permit can walk behind the walk-in gates.

[wooltie]

I suspect all gates are vehicle accessible at Snoqualmie.

Maybe I'll email them again to try and obtain a gate map.

I don't understand driving to a clear cut only to get out, walk 100 yards and sit.

If the vehicle permit business wasn't so lucritive, I'd suggest allocating sections of the tree farms to non-vehicle access only.  But hey, if they 1000 people are willing to pay over $200 for a permit, why shouldn't they provide for that demand?

Think I'll enjoy the wilderness and forest service lands much more once I find time to explore them.

[skagitsteel]

I only have one blacktail season under my belt but was fortunate enough to see a good # of animals and eventually hang a tag on a smaller one.  My biggest mistake was staying on the move too much, blacktail bucks are incredibly good at staying hidden and if you try to cover to much ground you simply wont see them.  I saw three bucks last yr and not a single one of them was standing in a clear cut. The vast majority of animals I saw were the first and last 30 minutes of shooting light on old overgrown grades.  Best piece of advice is sit on travel routes between cuts or on old grades and stay put during prime traveling hrs.  I tried going after one buck that would cut a new set of trucks through the same clearcut every night, I sat on that clearcut 3 mornings and 3 evenings, he was way too smart to step out...  Also when you move around and spook the does, makes it a lot tougher to locate a buck.. just my 

[eldplanko]

Happy to share my thoughts:

Hancock limits entry and exit generally to a single point. For example, in the Snoqualmie Tree farm you can only get in/out at Gate 10/11 north of North Bend.  It sucks if you live in Sultan, but have to drive all the way around just to get in. A few years ago, the country was working on the road to gate 10/11; so Hancock let folks get in at a different gate.

If you're really interested in biking or walking in; consider getting 5 miles behind the DNR gates. There are tons of options, free, and less likely to end up getting passed by others driving around in their rigs. DNR just put up a great web-based mapping service that shows their land/roads/etc: https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=50469fbf94f4425a81eee822b5e1b58c&extent=-127.5676,44.2616,-116.2077,50.2829