mud flow winter kill

[elkhuntingcouple]

we were out scouting the Loowit, and toutle, mud flow ext. We heard from 2 different people that 41% of the bulls died last year in the mud flow. Where would I find if this information is true?
We went up to the Observatory and received some hand outs on where you can hunt in the area, you cannot hunt any of the monument. There is the pumis flats hunt (4) people only get this hunt. And you cannot ride horses into the area if you do get an elk. The man there at the desk said most of the hunters don't bring out the meat, that it is just to hard of a pack. WHAT? I'm like why would you not allow horses in? he said you have to get a special permit even to walk off the trail. This is all done through our Government since we took money to watch how the blast in 1980 is effecting the land. What a bunch of BS. So we allow 41% of the animals to die but won't let anyone hunt. I am really confused on this one. made me mad, I know its not his problem but it is all of ours.

[pianoman9701]

There was a big winterkill, but there are still plenty of elk up in there. 41% sounds like a rumor.

[CP]

Sounds like BS to me.

Call the biologist for the area; they will have the winter kill info.

I hunted the Pumice Plains area a couple of years ago and I packed out my kill.  So did everyone else that I know who has hunted the area. 

[headshot5]

What I want to know is why would it only kill bulls?   

[pianoman9701]

It doesn't only kill bulls, but mature bulls are especially susceptible to starvation in the winter after having lost weight during the rut. This does create a proportionally high number of bulls to cows suffering winter kill.

[dewandgin]

I was part of the mortality study group that counted the winter kill on the mudflow and we did count over 70 winter kills (i believe it was 79 but not positive) only a very small percentage were bulls. Less than 10 total most were cows and calves.
 It was the third largest total since they started the count

[elkhuntingcouple]

Thank you for all the information, You never know when you hear something. to bad about the huge winter kill, makes me sad just the same.

[pianoman9701]

I was part of the mortality study group that counted the winter kill on the mudflow and we did count over 70 winter kills (i believe it was 79 but not positive) only a very small percentage were bulls. Less than 10 total most were cows and calves.
 It was the third largest total since they started the count

That's encouraging for the bulls, though. They normally make up 20% of a healthy herd. We did see a lot of cow skulls up there a couple of weeks ago. 

[Practical Approach]

I was part of the mortality study group that counted the winter kill on the mudflow and we did count over 70 winter kills (i believe it was 79 but not positive) only a very small percentage were bulls. Less than 10 total most were cows and calves.
 It was the third largest total since they started the count

I assume that the mortality study group only counted mortalities on the WDFW owned acerage on the bottom?  So, roughly 2700 acres of which not all is surveyed.  Lets say 2000 of it is surveyed so that means there were approximately 1 dead elk per 25 acres?   

[Blacktail Sniper]

Tagging, interesting thread.

[Alchase]

Can some one explain something to me please, all around this state elk heards move to where the food is at a given time of year. All the areas surrounding the Mud flow see the same snow leveles, same food sources and as far as I can see the elk in those ares are not starving.
Why are th mudflow elk not capable of moving out of the valley to find food?

[Austrian Hunter]

 

[pianoman9701]

If you've been in there, the refuge is flanked by hills, so it's the lowest point unless the elk travel downstream quite a ways toward towns. The weather is milder but the forage isn't as good as it should be for a winter range, with Scotch broom and mouse ear hawkweed and St. John's wort choking out the grasses. There's a bit of tansy in there, as well. Maybe that kills them, too??? Just guessing out loud.

[Alchase]

Every time I go there, the elk are all over the place from the valley floor to the top of the mountain north of the observatory. I just can't figure out why they do not migrate to the food. Or have we created a situation where they have become dependent on the winter feed that was or is supplied?

[pianoman9701]

Every time I go there, the elk are all over the place from the valley floor to the top of the mountain north of the observatory. I just can't figure out why they do not migrate to the food. Or have we created a situation where they have become dependent on the winter feed that was or is supplied?

I don't think food is supplied, but not sure. I think they've become dependent on the grasses. The noxious and invasive weeds are a fairly recent phenomenon, within the last 15 years or so. It may just be a migration habit that's being passed down. 

[snowpack]

Every time I go there, the elk are all over the place from the valley floor to the top of the mountain north of the observatory. I just can't figure out why they do not migrate to the food. Or have we created a situation where they have become dependent on the winter feed that was or is supplied?

Elk tend to be weird in that they seem to be so habitual about an area even though an adjacent area is uninhabited.  The cows seem to focus on the same trails and areas for their entire life, bulls will roam over the ridge and into the next drainage; but the cows are very reluctant.  Some of the areas I go will have a herd on one side, but they just won't spread out to the next and the next door area has really great elk habitat.  Think that is part of the reason why they have problems with relocating elk, when they get to their new home they are so confused and can't seem to adapt.

[Blacktail Sniper]

Every time I go there, the elk are all over the place from the valley floor to the top of the mountain north of the observatory. I just can't figure out why they do not migrate to the food. Or have we created a situation where they have become dependent on the winter feed that was or is supplied?

I don't think food is supplied, but not sure. I think they've become dependent on the grasses. The noxious and invasive weeds are a fairly recent phenomenon, within the last 15 years or so. It may just be a migration habit that's being passed down. 

They used to provide winter feed assistance in years past.  But don't know if it still happens on any kind of regular basis or at all.

[headshot5]

Yep, WDFW used to supplement the feed.  I believe they quit doing this, and a different group started feeding them.  I believe it was the St. Helens Preservation Society.  I do not know if they are still doing this or not.  I haven't heard anything in a few years.   

[Practical Approach]

Can some one explain something to me please, all around this state elk heards move to where the food is at a given time of year. All the areas surrounding the Mud flow see the same snow leveles, same food sources and as far as I can see the elk in those ares are not starving.
Why are th mudflow elk not capable of moving out of the valley to find food?

Due to the monoculture of timber that was all planted about the same time, there currently is little food.  Clearcuts are few and far between, the trees that were replaced after the blast are just now becoming harvest age.  Hopefully forage will get better with future cutting.  However, there are still problems with too many elk on a winter area that are eating every bit of palatable forage including noxious forage.  Not to mention timber companies are spraying clearcuts with herbacides at the most crucial time for forb and grass production for elk and deer.  They cant go to the adjacent areas that they just came from because any summer forage that was up in the hills has already been eaten or is dead and old from being cooked all summer. 

Elk in most of western Washington do not have huge migration patterns if any.  Many just have small elevational shifts due to snow levels.

[b0bbyg]

Just adding observations.
We hiked the loowit trail over the weekend and Sunday saw a nice herd 50-70 on the Northwest side of the mountain. It was a pretty good mix of old, young cows and bulls.  The only thing I did not see was bigger bulls in the herd. lots of spikes and a few raghorns.

One was limping pretty good but the rest seemed OK. Lots of tracks through the blast zone which was odd as there is little food in there.  Not sure if they are passing through or hitting the streams that were still flowing.  The whole west side was tracked up pretty good north of the south tootle.

Elk are where you find them I guess. I sure can't explain some of the places I have seen them.

[bowhunterty]

From Windy Ridge saw about 30 bulls laying in the oen pumice like I see every year. Did ser out ftom this herd 4 nice bulls.