Hoof Rot Town hall in Cowlitz Co.

[Curly]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

True! Or, one more option- an endangered salmon or steelhead. That works too.

I do know that herbicides are very bad news for fish.  With the buffers that are supposed to be left these days around streams, herbicides probably don't get in there in too high of concentrations to be too harmful, but I would think that even the chance that they might make it in there would be enough of a concern to limit the use for timber lands.

[Curly]

I found what I had read before.  It has to do with the Clean Air Washington Act:
   

What the Clean Air Washington Act does
    Reduces emissions from slash burning through a phased approach, based on 1985-89 averages:
    20 percent by the year 1995; and 50 percent by the year 2001.
    Directs DNR to develop and implement a plan to achieve the reductions.
    Declares that the emission reduction requirements apply to all forest land (including federal land) in Washington.
    Directs DNR to encourage alternative disposal methods in the following priority:

    production of less slash;
    better use of slash;
    disposal without burning; and slash burning.

https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/publications/fa9214.pdf

Hoof rot started occurring shortly after the Clean Air act started getting implemented.............coincidence? 

There you go.  It is the Dept of Ecology's fault.

[Bob33]

I heard they deplete the ozone layer also.

[bowbuild]

I am not trying to defend my living by any means....if that is the implication.....I am a fact guy....if it's bad, for wildlife I will be at the front of the line. I also know a lot about pesticides their usage, and my customers idea of problem solving......a lot of them could care less how much, how often, or what I choose to use to correct a problem they have. I even adjust my spray as to have as little impact on pollinators as possible.....I do care about the eviroment, and am well educated in what I do. I realize EVERYTHING I apply has a impact on not only the grounds I treat, but if overapplied everything down stream as well.

Some of you are thinking to small....in the usage of pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers. Most of you know that herbicides are for the most part only applied to vegetation..like broadleaf killers, and sprays that are applied for deciduous trees, and total vegetation killers. They are also applied to your trout fishing lakes.....different chemicals, and are restricted use...no public access to these chemicals.

This is getting a bit off subject, and I realize you guys are thinking of helicopters spraying herbicides from the air, as well as those that spray from the ground.....looks bad don't it? But when you compare a few applications to ALL home owners not only applying herbicides, but fertilizers by the 10-20-50 lbs sacks yr in yr out at least twice a yr for their lawns, and who knows for their garden plants it adds up fast. Add some pesticides in there as well, you know those sacks of 20lbs sacks to kill everything on your lawn.....somebody is making a bundle of money on all this stuff yr after yr.......and you think it has no effect?? 

I am currently working with a few other applicators, along with the department of AG and a few state senators to assure certain pesticides have stricter requirements to assure the health and safety of both people, and wildlife.

Bowbuild

[Curly]

Maybe it is just a case of this bacteria being in the ground in these affected areas and maybe in the past when common practice was to burn the slash and the clearcuts after logging, maybe the bacteria was killed by fire?    So, maybe this bacteria never gets destroyed like it used to because of the use of herbicides instead of burning.  Burning also had the benefit of adding nitrogen to the soil which would help the plants to grow.    

Hopefully they will get it figured out and implement some measures that will actually accomplish some good.

[snowpack]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

True! Or, one more option- an endangered salmon or steelhead. That works too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've heard it is being worked on.  The theory is that herbicides kill the broad leafed plants not the conifers.  In areas with lots of different plants, the broad leaf plants lose their leaves and they get washed down to the streams where they are the food for the aquatic insects that salmon and steelhead fry eat when the fish carcasses have been consumed.  I heard that it is being investigated in Oregon, but they have smaller stream buffers.  The rivers I see in Washington have lots of alder and some maples/cottonwoods, so... 

[bowbuild]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

True! Or, one more option- an endangered salmon or steelhead. That works too.

I do know that herbicides are very bad news for fish.  With the buffers that are supposed to be left these days around streams, herbicides probably don't get in there in too high of concentrations to be too harmful, but I would think that even the chance that they might make it in there would be enough of a concern to limit the use for timber lands.

So I would suspect you have never seen county workers/state spraying herbicides directly in ditches......not saying it's good, but it happens often.

[Curly]

If someone could just find a dead wolf that died from herbicides, or a spotted owl, then the problem is solved.

True! Or, one more option- an endangered salmon or steelhead. That works too.

I do know that herbicides are very bad news for fish.  With the buffers that are supposed to be left these days around streams, herbicides probably don't get in there in too high of concentrations to be too harmful, but I would think that even the chance that they might make it in there would be enough of a concern to limit the use for timber lands.

So I would suspect you have never seen county workers/state spraying herbicides directly in ditches......not saying it's good, but it happens often.

Yes I have.  I know that is bad.  But I'm trying to discuss herbicides as they relate to timber practices and the potential hoof rot in elk.  I know there are a lot of idiots that misuse pesticides and herbicides..........I'm sure you'd prefer that only licensed people be allowed to purchase the products and apply them, and maybe there is merit to that idea.  But again I'm just trying to think of ways to eliminate the use of spraying on timber lands where the wildlife I'd like to hunt would prefer to live.

I've wondered for many years about the relation to hair loss in blacktails to the use of sprays.  I always see mangy looking deer along I-5 feeding right on the shoulder, eating the weeds that get sprayed along the shoulder.  Doesn't seem like a good idea to me to spray.  When you go out to a clearcut that is scheduled to be sprayed or has been sprayed, they have warning signs up telling you saying something about not eating the berries......why is it okay for the animals to ingest the stuff but not for us? 

[bowbuild]

Please read....

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/nr/rdonlyres/a72c98bf-88cd-4baa-9b0f-5bb709a0c564/0/glyphosate.pdf

[JLS]

My personal belief here is that herbicides are indirectly leading to hoof rot by reducing the quality of habitat in the forested uplands.  This would then cause the elk to spend more time in the low land agricultural areas where they are more likely to come into contact with the causing agent of the hoof rot.

I agree with Bowbuild that it's highly likely to be a disease that is originating in domestic animals and being spread to elk.  Having compromised immune systems because of naturally low levels of copper and other trace minerals will likely exacerbate the problem.  This, coupled with lower quality of food sources in certain areas could easily create the situation at hand.

[bbarnes]

Has anyone researched the permits and amounts being applied,on the DNR web page like i suggested ? Also look up the study the university of Alberta just did,on the use of herbicides around the mount saint helens area.Another great read is the WDFWs population assessment from 2009 - 2013.The WDFW has no mention of effects on elk and lack of habitat caused from these applications.As a matter of fact DAVE WARE boasted about how healthy are herd is last night in cathlamit.Then read the effects on habitat in the university study, quite different and still funded by the same timber company.Again do a little research and read the labels on the chemicals,anything that says don't graze your animals for 60 to 90 days after application,cant be good for our wildlife.Plus the fact it wipes out vegetation our wildlife needs to survive for up to 7 years.The facts of the matter are they have killed 54 elk now with no clue of whats killing them.They have not preformed the same test on all of them,because of the cost of lab work.Where do we go from here,we need to start eliminating some thing.Get involved show up to the meeting in Vancouver.

[JLS]

Maybe you can post some links for us lazy people? 

[bbarnes]

A lot of the timber company's are mixing 4 to 5 chemicals together,and adding a sticking agent so they adhere to the plants there spraying.When you look at a MSDS sheet it tells you what cause and effects are for one,but there's no study's to show what happens when they mix them.Ask any VIETNAM VET what happens when you get sprayed with AGENT ORANGE.Seems to be the same cause and effect are wild life's going through.I urge all of you to ask for public disclosure on whats going on,and what study's have been done, and where samples have been sent, it may surprise you what you get back.

[bowbuild]

First....you must deal with the right agency...for chemicals the department of Agriculture is the one to deal with, not the game department....sure they can give their opinion, but these are separate agencies.

A LOT of you that believe that the chemicals used are the "core" cause most likely use the same, and or, similar chemicals in your yards.....and you think nothing of it......you ever see the state spraying ditches, and right of ways with herbicides? Have you ever considered that these chemicals are washed from those ditches to river systems?? Be carefull at whom you point your fingers at, because many of you are doing the same in smaller quantities, BUT when several home owners in a block, and the next block..ect. add up to a lot of herbicides, fertilizers, pesticides that we all use. Just because it says Miracle grow....only means the miracle is in the synthetic fertilizer in the product.

Ironic that (some) people that support timber company land rights to charge access for hunters would take (or want to) take away their right to manage their lands as they see fit within the law....with no proof, only a presumed POSSIBLE reason for hoof rot.....laughable, unprovable at this point.....although I am open to a fact finding. I for the record believe they have the right to charge access, but disagree with it fully.

Bowbuild

If a landowner does something on his property which is proven to negatively effect wildlife, he's liable to the state for damages. The wildlife belongs to the people, regardless of whose land it's on. You're absolutely correct that nothing's been proven...yet.

To the contrary....if the landowner is following label law, he is NOT reponsible for the effects of the chemicals on wildlife, or anything else for that manner. The label IS the law....applicators, and home owners "in good faith" of the label rates set by the EPA and state Department of Agriculture are only liable if they deviate from the label. Call the department of AG. if you doubt me.

Bowbuild

[bowbuild]

A lot of the timber company's are mixing 4 to 5 chemicals together,and adding a sticking agent so they adhere to the plants there spraying.When you look at a MSDS sheet it tells you what cause and effects are for one,but there's no study's to show what happens when they mix them.Ask any VIETNAM VET what happens when you get sprayed with AGENT ORANGE.Seems to be the same cause and effect are wild life's going through.I urge all of you to ask for public disclosure on whats going on,and what study's have been done, and where samples have been sent, it may surprise you what you get back.

So exactly what chemicals?? I am willing to research them. A list please??