The Green Scam of “Endangered Species”

[pianoman9701]

they don't really care about what happens to hunting. They care about their pocket book or political ideology.

  Saving endangered species is all fine and good for some folks until it has even the slightest hint of harming their immediate bottom line...tragedy of the commons.

I think ESA has been abused to further agendas in many ways, but it has also done a lot of good in terms of addressing environmental problems.  ESA has a lot of "teeth" that other environmental laws and regs lack...which is good and bad.

Again, your words are rhetoric only. Licensed hunters have never caused the extinction of any animal in the US. Do we want wolves here? No.  Are we going to cause them to become extinct? There's not a chance in hell. It won't happen. You got the wolves you love so dearly and they're here to stay.

[AspenBud]

One way to do that is to increase the endangered list by a record 757 new species by 2018. Two species with the greatest impact on private development are range birds, the greater sage grouse and the lesser prairie chicken. Among the environmental groups who specialize in using the Endangered Species Act are the Wildlife Guardians and the Center for Biological Diversity who have been party to more than one thousands lawsuits between 1900 and the present. The Center has made no secret of wanting to end fossil-fuel production in the U.S.

Like I said Wolfbait, where were you before the wolf? You don't give one hoot about "the end of hunting" unless it applies to the animals you like to hunt.

Actually Aspenbud, I didn't know too much about the ESA until the wolves, since then I have learned quite a bit as have several others. I guess the fraud of the wolf introduction has alerted several about the ESA, EPA, DOE and the crooks that run them.

What we are seeing here on W-H are those who support crooks also support the wolves that were Illegally introduced. My guess is you know right from wrong, but the agenda and $$$$ means more.

What I see here is a double standard. You go railing against wolves and belly ache about how it is supposed end to all hunting and then turn around and effectively say "the hell with upland birds if it messes with my land or grazing rights." Upland bird hunters talk about hunting sage grouse and prairie chickens because they don't know how much longer they'll be able to. Why? Because their habitat is disappearing thanks to development and the grazing practices of some ranchers on leases further degrades what's there. To be fair, a number of ranchers have gotten religion and started working with people trying to save the birds, but for anyone to single out these birds, birds that people like to hunt, because it interferes with their property rights just tells me that they don't really care about what happens to hunting. They care about their pocket book or political ideology.

Well, there's no double-standard in this thread that I can see. No one's talking about upland birds except for you, so that's way out of left field. And, since it sounds like you don't know the facts, I'll give one to you; licensed hunters have NEVER caused the extinction of an animal in the US, ever. So, have your rant that has nothing to do with anyone at all. We'll go back to talking about greenies who are using the ESA to forward their extreme agendas.

Actually Wolfbait's article talked about them pretty explicitly towards the end, did you read it? He himself has mentioned them several times in the past as an example of the ESA gone wrong.

You need to stop gulping down the government conspiracy theories and think about things a little.

[AspenBud]

they don't really care about what happens to hunting. They care about their pocket book or political ideology.

  Saving endangered species is all fine and good for some folks until it has even the slightest hint of harming their immediate bottom line...tragedy of the commons.

I think ESA has been abused to further agendas in many ways, but it has also done a lot of good in terms of addressing environmental problems.  ESA has a lot of "teeth" that other environmental laws and regs lack...which is good and bad.

Again, your words are rhetoric only. Licensed hunters have never caused the extinction of any animal in the US. Do we want wolves here? No.  Are we going to cause them to become extinct? There's not a chance in hell. It won't happen. You got the wolves you love so dearly and they're here to stay.

Way to twist the facts. No one said hunting was causing anything to go extinct. Bad land use practices are.

[JLS]

And in ID they are going to kill 4k ravens because those PREDATORS have gone unchecked for 40+ years

I wish them luck. I have serious doubts that it will help.

Actually, Nevada has found that as an INTERIM measure it will likely benefit grouse numbers.  However, as you and I both know, it is not a long term fix.  Rather it is a band-aid measure to be used while habitat is improved/restored.

Nevada has had some pretty big fires that have eliminated a lot of sage grouse nesting cover.  Cheat grass has not been kind to sage grouse.

[AspenBud]

One of my big pet peeves with the anti-wolf crowd is a lot of them like to try and draw in hunters by trying to establish there is a threat to the activity. Often those same people talk out both sides of their mouth. They scare everyone into thinking the end of hunting is coming while effectively not giving a rip about non-big game species.

They don't like wolves because they eat livestock and they don't like sage grouse because their decline represents a threat to how they use the land.

They don't care at all about hunting, it's just a convenient side story they try and use to manipulate hunters.

[pianoman9701]

So then, you deny that the ESA is being used as a tool of environmental wackos to forward their agendas? This is only a conspiracy I'm gulping down? Why am I not surprised that you feel that way?

Some land use hurts wildlife. Some wildlife will go extinct through no fault of anyone, like the dusky goose should. But the people using the ESA to stop wolf hunts are not doing to save the wolf, because the wolf isn't in danger. Many of them are doing it to stop hunting; to create a crisis which forces F&G departments to curtail deer and elk hunting. And with the help of the ESA and the wolf, they'll accomplish it by depleting ungulate herds to dangerously low levels.

The ESA is a poorly written piece of legislation and needs to be re-written.

[bearpaw]

One of my big pet peeves with the anti-wolf crowd is a lot of them like to try and draw in hunters by trying to establish there is a threat to the activity. Often those same people talk out both sides of their mouth. They scare everyone into thinking the end of hunting is coming while effectively not giving a rip about non-big game species.

They don't like wolves because they eat livestock and they don't like sage grouse because their decline represents a threat to how they use the land.

They don't care at all about hunting, it's just a convenient side story they try and use to manipulate hunters.

I'm amazed by your insane comments? Do you just hate anyone who isn't a pro-wolfer?

[pianoman9701]

Ya think, Bearpaw?

[bearpaw]

Ya think, Bearpaw?

He has a double standard, cries when he gets called a wolf lover but seems to hate anyone who wants to manage wolves and calls them anti-wolf or wolf haters. 

[Special T]

JLS while you are correct it is not a complete fix it IS doing soemthing meaningful to provide relief.

The ESA has very few sucess stories. The most notable are predators, kinda ironic...  Wolves, american aligator, Sealions?

Mostly it isn't sucessful and is just a tool for control... More HABITAT when they shut down logging didnt help the spotted owl... HUNTING the competing own may however provide some relief... There is a LOT of $ to be made by "non profits" in aquireing land, selling it and doing habitat projects.

HUNTING is the most costeffective tool to help provide balance and relief, aminl because sportsmen PAY to do it and are willing to report thier kills

[bearpaw]

I lease a ranch in Utah that has been part of a sage grouse study for about 5 years. The ranch owners invited the University and UDWR to do the study and we quit hunting sage grouse while they study them.

Yep, it obvious ranchers and hunters hate sage grouse and only are concerned about the bottom line. 

I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.

[AspenBud]

Ya think, Bearpaw?

He has a double standard, cries when he gets called a wolf lover but seems to hate anyone who wants to manage wolves and calls them anti-wolf or wolf haters. 

That's actually pretty funny Bearpaw. I've said on numerous occasions that there should be some kind of management of them. I am however quite critical of all the propaganda and extremist views thrown around here about them. I make no secret of it.

[AspenBud]

I lease a ranch in Utah that has been part of a sage grouse study for about 5 years. The ranch owners invited the University and UDWR to do the study and we quit hunting sage grouse while they study them.

Yep, it obvious ranchers and hunters hate sage grouse and only are concerned about the bottom line. 

I would have no problem with the ESA if it was used to bring back species which are in danger rather than a tool for enviro groups to stop activities they don't endorse.

Yup, and I acknowledged that some have started to be helpful. Or did you conveniently miss that part?

[bearpaw]

Ya think, Bearpaw?

He has a double standard, cries when he gets called a wolf lover but seems to hate anyone who wants to manage wolves and calls them anti-wolf or wolf haters. 

That's actually pretty funny Bearpaw. I've said on numerous occasions that there should be some kind of management of them. I am however quite critical of all the propaganda and extremist views thrown around here about them. I make no secret of it.

You seem to be the extremist, I think most hunters on this forum simply want reasonable management. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

Pianoman- did you read the article he posted???  Re read it and get back to us about birds, bears, and other species.  They are clearly arguing that since many species have gone extinct in the past that its ok to let it happen nowadays.  Unbelievable.