Growing Evidence Links Herbicides to Elk Hoof Disease

[pianoman9701]

After reading this it makes slash burns look pretty good. 

Slash burns would be far more beneficial to the forests. Unfortunately, the air quality police are stomping on those while our critters and waters are being filled with dangerous chemicals.

My question would be which group would be "easier" to convince. The chemical group to stop using herbicides, or the air quality group to let burning happen?

I believe air quality falls under the federal oversight of the EPA, as does certification of the "approved chemicals". Being that the very dangerous (sarc) carbon-emitting smoke is on their hit list while they ignore the dangers of Atrazine, I would say the chemicals will continue to be sprayed while burning continues to be demonized. It's the topsy-turvy world of pandering to the global warming alarmists while turning a blind eye to the poisoning of our wildlife and water with these EPA approved chemicals.

[snowpack]

After reading this it makes slash burns look pretty good. 

Slash burns would be far more beneficial to the forests. Unfortunately, the air quality police are stomping on those while our critters and waters are being filled with dangerous chemicals.

My question would be which group would be "easier" to convince. The chemical group to stop using herbicides, or the air quality group to let burning happen?

I believe air quality falls under the federal oversight of the EPA, as does certification of the "approved chemicals". Being that the very dangerous (sarc) carbon-emitting smoke is on their hit list while they ignore the dangers of Atrazine, I would say the chemicals will continue to be sprayed while burning continues to be demonized. It's the topsy-turvy world of pandering to the global warming alarmists while turning a blind eye to the poisoning of our wildlife and water with these EPA approved chemicals.

I think EPA is a lost cause for investigating pesticides.  I've been looking at a bunch of stuff over the past couple years about honey bees and the concerns regarding pesticides.  The EPA holds its meetings in regards to them on the East Coast during pollination season when the vast majority of beekeepers are in California.  The meeting is mostly run by reps of the pesticide industry (Monsanto, Bayer, etc).  EPA uses the 'scientific' studies regarding pesticides that were forwarded to them from the industry R&Ds.  They really don't do their own tests or refer to independent studies before approval.

[timberfaller]

The EPA in general is a lost cause

You'll never convince the educated idiots that both spraying and burning are beneficial.  They will argue the "negatives" of both issues to save "face" with the environmental wacko's

Just look at the EPA stance on Wood burning stoves     I wonder how many years and ALL the  wood stoves put together would equal ONE catastrophic wildfire of late!?? 

[jongosch]

SpotandStalk,

I appreciate constructive criticism.  Yours does not qualify.

You take an animal and put it into a situation where it has poor nutrition, high stress, and a severely disrupted immune system and you're going to see health problems.  Herbicides help create those conditions.  Elk hoof disease may be directly caused by some opportunistic bacteria (treponema, leptospirosis, or another) but it is likely that these toxic herbicides got the ball rolling downhill.

--Calling something EPA approved does not mean it's safe, especially at the doses we're discussing.
--You don't see this in livestock because ranchers don't typically give their livestock toxic feed.  Also, the cattle are probably vaccinated for whatever bacteria has helped create the hoof disease.

[snowpack]

You take an animal and put it into a situation where it has poor nutrition, high stress, and a severely disrupted immune system and you're going to see health problems.  Herbicides help create those conditions.  Elk hoof disease may be directly caused by some opportunistic bacteria (treponema, leptospirosis, or another) but it is likely that these toxic herbicides got the ball rolling downhill.

They don't even need poor nutrition or stress.  In the other thread I put a link about an applicator that sprayed a rural residential area and many effects were immediate--not the toxic build up like wildlife are likely exeriencing.  The symptoms in a couple horses and a dog were noted--weight loss (500 lbs for one horse--must have been a really big horse to begin with I guess) and blinded a colt.

--Calling something EPA approved does not mean it's safe, especially at the doses we're discussing.
--You don't see this in livestock because ranchers don't typically give their livestock toxic feed.  Also, the cattle are probably vaccinated for whatever bacteria has helped create the hoof disease.

Actually, last year the FDA was sued regarding toxic animal feed.  They were found to be covering up years worth of studies and had been approving feeds with arsenic.  I think because of the lawsuit and the resurgence of the old documents, FDA issued a ban on a group of feeds.

[jongosch]

Thanks for the link, Snowpack

[SpotandStalk]

Gosch,

What doses and what chemical are you citing? A labeled rate or an application that goes outside of a label rate? 

What toxic feed are you citing? 

What I am driving at is specifics....not generalizations based on assumptions or opinions?  I may not even disagree with you, but I need data to stand behind something.  Have certain chemicals CAUSED contamination that has had detrimental effects to our environment, wildlife, society, etc....you bet.  I will cite Love Canal, DDT, Agent Orange (2,4,5-T) as some examples.  But you are making generalizations in your statement that "Herbicides Linked to....." Cite a specific chemical and lets have a debate.

[bbarnes]

Look up Heath  effects of ATRAZINE also VELPAR DF and the time to wait to graze animals.Also the MSDS on ROUND UP EXTRA,and effects to animals and fish.I don't think any one is looking for a debate,just raising awareness of a chemical that's banned in third world country's,for a reason.If you have a wealth of knowledge and are in a job that applies these,please post all the info you have and the health effects.In addition look up the cocktails being mixed together then applied to forest,and there effects to HUMANS down stream and fish and wildlife.The department of AG approves chemicals for there labeled use.I haven't found and maybe you could tell us where to find how its approved to mix from 5 to 25 of these chemicals together?

[bearpaw]

I didn't read the whole topic real closely so may have missed something, sorry if I did.

I also agree that slash burns would be beneficial, more of a natural way to clear the land, wildfires have been taking place forever. It seems that burning forest debri even with wood stoves is likely less than ever, I don't see why EPA is so opposed to a natural phenomenon of burning wood.

It has never seemed good to me that everything gets nuked by these chemicals, but the timber companies are trying to raise a crop, which should be no different than any other farmer trying to raise a crop and eliminating unwanted species from their fields. However, if it can be proven that certain chemicals or mixes of chemicals are killing off wildlife or hurting humans, then something definitely needs done to halt the problem.

I agree that you can't take action on suspected causes. I hope you guys have convinced WDFW to test for chemicals, it sounds like that is the next step. Another possibility is to acquire the right tissue samples yourselves from infected animals and have them tested. If you had some test results showing toxic chemical levels you would be armed with some evidence that could not be ignored.

Have you talked to your local RMEF leaders to see if they will get involved in finding the cause?

Just some food for thought in this quest to find the real cause of hoof rot.

[pianoman9701]

I have talked with the W. WA chapter director of the RMEF regarding what's been said at the Hoof Disease meetings, at least the one I attended. As stated earlier, I pointedly asked the vet and the biologist (Jonker) if testing had been done to detect agricultural chemicals. They said "no", which is completely unbelievable to me unless you don't want certain answers. They didn't offer that that type of testing would be done in the future. Testing on individual animals by hunters is an option, although proper collection and handling of these samples, as well as the cost of testing would be a couple of stumbling blocks. It would be best if the DFW had a system set up to accept samples from infected animals to continue testing. However, at this point, it seems like they really don't want to find out what's causing this if it means going up against big timber. 

I will draft an email to Nate Pamplin about testing for agricultural chemicals and ask him to commit one way or another. We'll see how that goes.

[bearpaw]

I have talked with the W. WA chapter director of the RMEF regarding what's been said at the Hoof Disease meetings, at least the one I attended. As stated earlier, I pointedly asked the vet and the biologist (Jonker) if testing had been done to detect agricultural chemicals. They said "no", which is completely unbelievable to me unless you don't want certain answers. They didn't offer that that type of testing would be done in the future. Testing on individual animals by hunters is an option, although proper collection and handling of these samples, as well as the cost of testing would be a couple of stumbling blocks. It would be best if the DFW had a system set up to accept samples from infected animals to continue testing. However, at this point, it seems like they really don't want to find out what's causing this if it means going up against big timber. 

I will draft an email to Nate Pamplin about testing for agricultural chemicals and ask him to commit one way or another. We'll see how that goes.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease!...

Why don't you post your letter here on the forum and ask others to write a message to WDFW asking for thorough chemical testing of all elk with hoof rot?

[pianoman9701]

good idea

[6x6in6]

Unless I misunderstood your post piano, what did the RMEF WA chapter director have to say when you talked with him about this subject?

[pianoman9701]

He didn't comment except to thank me for my report. The communications were by email.

[Bob33]

"As stated earlier, I pointedly asked the vet and the biologist (Jonker) if testing had been done to detect agricultural chemicals. They said "no", which is completely unbelievable to me unless you don't want certain answers. They didn't offer that that type of testing would be done in the future. "

My next question would be "why not?"