Hoof Rot in Oregon

[t6]

What happened to all the people who said "It cant be herbicides causing hoof rot.  If that were the case, they would have it in Oregon too."     

Could it be those people were silenced when hoof rot was found in Tillamook as well as other parts of WA?     

[snowpack]

how many cases have shown up down there so far? (suspected)

[t6]

We don't know.  ODFW had contract hunters killing elk that showed symptoms of what they called "Bacterial Leg Deformities" 

The killings took place last summer however its obvious that ODFW did not want the info out as they made the hunters sign Non-Discosure Documents. 

Were the animals tested?  What if anything was found?  Why didn't ODFW want this info out?  Why hide it? 

[jongosch]

I've been investigating this very thing lately. This morning I received an email from a reporter with KOIN 6 who said that ODFW admitted to him that there have likely been cases of elk hoof rot in Oregon. I can also corroborate some of what t6 is saying about Tillamook. And in addition to all of this I have 8 separate sources reporting hoof rot in 6 different areas of Oregon, from Vernonia to Coos Bay. The geographical distribution of these reports, as well as new insights into the chelating effects of pesticides, makes it almost a certainty that forest chemicals are the root cause of this disease. I'll post more when I'm back to my computer.

[Curly]

Keep up the good work, guys. :thumbup:

[bobferris]

I am a wildlife biologist and have been working in and around wildlife issues for four decades so I am very cautious about what I say in the absence of proof from multiple sources.  That said the evidence of something being hidden is growing and there is a lot at stake at this point in the forestry arena, particularly in Oregon where the timber industry wants to take over more than a million acres of coastal forest (O&C Lands).  They would like to manage these lands in a manner similar to their private lands--which if elements of the House bill survive could include herbicide use (see http://www.cascwild.org/oh-deer-reading-between-the-oc-lines/.  So right now there are millions and millions at risk and the timber industry does not want anything that would cast doubt on herbicides or even their myths that their style of clearcuts and management are good for deer and elk.  The more informed eyes and ears we have on this issue the better.

[snowpack]

From reading the posts it makes me wonder why we haven't heard more from the Oregon side.  Thing I come up with are (a) that they want to pretend it doesn't exist and not make WDFW look bad for ignoring it for 20 years to the point it has spread to another state, (b) timber companies-forestry practices are somehow involved but due to the money and politics ODFW is hushed so as to not affect the bottom line, (c) they don't want to cause concern amongst their hunters and affect tag revenues or (d) all of the above.  Probably a few more I missed.
But the way it would spread like that...appearing in isolated areas makes it seem more like it wasn't spread by a herd.  If the herd did it, then shouldn't all of the elk down to the Columbia have got it and then it would've appeared on the other side and worked its way down?  I guess crows or other avian scavengers could've moved a non-herbicide cause across.  Or people--carcass dumped on other side for disposal or coyote bait or something.  But seems like that would've been so small as not to really provide a way for the 'hoof rot source' to take hold down there.  But widespread chemical use seems like it would.   

[Curly]

So right now there are millions and millions at risk and the timber industry does not want anything that would cast doubt on herbicides or even their myths that their style of clearcuts and management are good for deer and elk.

I bolded a couple of things in the above statement. 

While I agree that the timber industry does a poor job of creating habitat that is good for deer and elk, wouldn't clear cuts be a good thing for deer and elk if the sizes were smaller and if the weeds growing up weren't killed off with herbicides?  And even with the vast clearcuts and use of herbicides, aren't those tree farms better habitat than some of the forests that the USFS has that haven't been cut for decades?

I think DNR does a much better job of managing their lands for wildlife habitat..............they would probably be great habitat if they would stop with the spraying of herbicides.

I drive though some of Weyco's land and there are very large tracts of Clearcuts here, timber there, and no diversity.  But how do you get a private company to use practices that benefit wildlife?  They are in the business of growing and harvesting trees not creating wildlife habitat.  The only thing I think we can demand of them is that they don't make the animals that are there sick.  If herbicides are making the animals sick, then I think we have the right to demand the stop of herbicide use.  But I don't see how we can demand anything else such as trying to dictate a more diverse forest and various age class of trees. 

What are your thoughts, Bob?

[jongosch]

Although there are other timber entities at play, this is the map you'll want to get familiar with: http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/Businesses/RecreationalAccess/Oregon

My reports have pointed to both of the Vernonia units, the Trask, Cottage Grove, Coos Bay and another one on the coast (near Hug Point) that was WEYCO at the time but has since changed hands.  None of my reports have come from more than a mile or two outside of these properties.  Statistically, it's starting to get very VERY improbable that these chemicals aren't in play.  If the root cause truly were infectious bacteria then you would see the reports spread out a bit more evenly I would believe, not hopping from one WEYCO property to the next.

[headshot5]

I guess crows or other avian scavengers could've moved a non-herbicide cause across.  Or people--carcass dumped on other side for disposal or coyote bait or something.  But seems like that would've been so small as not to really provide a way for the 'hoof rot source' to take hold down there.  But widespread chemical use seems like it would.

Seriously my guess (and it is a guess) would be waterfowl spreading it.  Especially geese.  They land in fields all the way up the coast.  In December elk are hitting the fields as well.  If the bacteria lives on the ground for weeks then there is a possiblity that geese will end up spreading it, up and down the coast.  All these isolated areas, probably have farmers and fields and geese...

Geese are traveling at the perfect time to spread the bacteria, spring and fall in wet weather.  Just when the elk are gathering in farmers fields.  Let me guess, are the new places where hoof rot is showing up have farmers and fields?  I'm betting yes.   

[pianoman9701]

So right now there are millions and millions at risk and the timber industry does not want anything that would cast doubt on herbicides or even their myths that their style of clearcuts and management are good for deer and elk.

I bolded a couple of things in the above statement. 

While I agree that the timber industry does a poor job of creating habitat that is good for deer and elk, wouldn't clear cuts be a good thing for deer and elk if the sizes were smaller and if the weeds growing up weren't killed off with herbicides?  And even with the vast clearcuts and use of herbicides, aren't those tree farms better habitat than some of the forests that the USFS has that haven't been cut for decades?

I think DNR does a much better job of managing their lands for wildlife habitat..............they would probably be great habitat if they would stop with the spraying of herbicides.

I drive though some of Weyco's land and there are very large tracts of Clearcuts here, timber there, and no diversity.  But how do you get a private company to use practices that benefit wildlife?  They are in the business of growing and harvesting trees not creating wildlife habitat.  The only thing I think we can demand of them is that they don't make the animals that are there sick.  If herbicides are making the animals sick, then I think we have the right to demand the stop of herbicide use.  But I don't see how we can demand anything else such as trying to dictate a more diverse forest and various age class of trees. 

What are your thoughts, Bob?

Historically, there are a lot of things at play here. First, the moratorium since the late 80s (thank you Spotted Owl) on clear cutting natural forests has reduced ungulate populations. However, the fact that they're not going nuts with herbicides would produce a much healthier feed, albeit scarcer. In addition, because we can't ignore the needs of home and landowners, we continue to fight forest fires which in the absence of clear cutting, would create open spaces. Then you have the EPA's insistence that burning and release of the resulting carbon emissions is bad for our planet, has necessitated a move by the timber companies to use herbicides to grow a healthy and abundant product instead of slashing and burning to achieve the same goal.

I'd like to see the NFS and USFWS take more of a lead in allowing some clear cutting. They've already done some habitat improvement and there are a few cuts going on, but nowhere near enough to make a lasting impact. I'd also like to see the EPA make the intelligent decision that smoke form a fire is better for our environment than coating our forests and animals with chemicals, but the EPA stopped being intelligent back in the 90s. The timber companies are in an unenviable position with their assets and the politicians are all taking money from them and are beholden to those who contribute cash to their elections. Not an easy combination to deal with.

Better for the earth if we burn
Better for the animals if we cut
Better for the people if corporations weren't able to donate so damned much money to politicians.
Better if the EPA were environmentally instead of politically focused
 

[Tbar]

Just a thought,  what industry is Tillamook known for? 

[jongosch]

Just a thought,  what industry is Tillamook known for?

To be clear, these elk were not killed in the town of Tillamook, but about 30 miles east of town on industrial timber property.  They are not grazing dairy cows up in those hills.  And if they were, I hope you wouldn't be reckless enough to let your family drink the milk.  Even the timber-funded NCASI toxicologist Vickie Tatum admitted that the MSDS sheets on these chemicals caution to avoid that kind of contamination: “The reason that there are grazing restrictions on [atrazine] is to make sure that there’s no residues in the milk.”

But then, of course, there's also this from the National Center for Biotechnology Information:

"The statistically significant difference between atrazine concentration in the serum and urine samples of the study and control groups indicated that atrazine in the feed ingredients ingested by cattle could be transferred in to the biological samples and could be a potential hazard for human health."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3481744/

These elk are perfectly safe to eat though, right?  It must just be cattle that are a hazard for human health.

[snowpack]

At 30 miles, it would seem less likely to be from dairies, but elk do wander at times.  I think it would be quite far for roosevelts to move that far either during rut or winter migration.  But they sure do like grazing with cattle in riverside pastures in winter.  I would just hope that bios in Oregon take a good look at everything and aren't relying just on what WDFW has scribbled down.

[jongosch]

Here's something else that sheds even more doubt on WDFW's treponema theory.  This is from their technical advisory group meeting on June 3rd in Vancouver.  A direct quote from Jennifer Wilson, research microbiologist from the USDA.

“So far no one has been able to recapitulate this disease using pure culture.  We’ve tried.  You can inject those treponemes and you can actually reculture them later out of the skin tissue, but no lesion.  So they’re there.  They’re possibly playing a role, but they’re not the entirety.”