Chukar, shotgun, questions for the experts

[packmule]

I'm curious what the chukar experts think:

(1) Is a 20 gauge or 12 gauge preferred?

(2) Is a pump, autoloader, SxS, or O/U preferred?

Any insights would be appreciated.

[jackson7]

I prefer the 20 sxs w 6 shot choked modified/full. Sometimes a third shot is nice to have as stragglers flush late ie: model 37 pump also in 20.
Weight is a concern when one is hiking 5-10 miles per day.

[birddogdad]

no expert here,

1) what you shoot accurately (most important)
2) weight, you are shagging steep hills
3) 2 shots vs 3, if your fast, you can pull off a tripple. Also 2 barrels allows for choke tube differences if you feel the need. (mod/full)

having said this, i have all 3 guns available, perfer my 12 o/u but have 20 o/u and benelli light 20 semi. All work, and yes have wished i carried the semi with that 3rd shot on occasion!

the upland "purist' would say only sbs or o/u other wise your cheating....

[bobcat]

For chukar, definitely a pump or auto, for the third shot. It's too much work for me to only get two shots when I finally find some birds. I like my 20 gauge Remington 1100 LT, but my preference would be a 12 gauge. Shots can be long, and again, birds are too far and few between to hunt with anything less than a 12 gauge. However, if you only have a lightweight 20 gauge and a heavy 12, take the 20.

[Dave Workman]

I'm curious what the chukar experts think:

(1) Is a 20 gauge or 12 gauge preferred?

(2) Is a pump, autoloader, SxS, or O/U preferred?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Since I do this sort of thing as part of my living   

My preference is for the double-barrel, in either 12- or 20, but I think the 20 is a bit more practical because of the size of the bird. Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance. I own a double 12 and two 20s, one an S/S and the other an O/U.

Use 6 or 7 1/2 shot, with modified and full or modified and I/C, depending upon whether you have a good dog and can get close. Chukars will hold for a good dog. For a lousy dog, they'll boogie and you'll be lucky to get a decent shot in maybe two or three flushes, and in that case, you'll definitely want the M/F setup.

Having a third shot is often superflous because by the time you get that one off, the birds have gone far enough out that you won't get an effective shot pattern. Chukar, if you hunt them over on the Snake River or Columbia breaks where it is steep terrain, will almost always get up and then head straight down hill to pick up speed and create distance from the threat. They are a remarkably fast bird, but they don't frighten the ¢r@p out of you like a grouse can in cover.

Pumps and autoloaders are nice for goose pits and duck blinds; places where you don't have to do a lot of walking. After a half-day lugging around a pump or auto with its longer receiver and firing mechanism, you could have some tired arms.

I hunt almost exclusively with double guns. Learned a long time ago the additional weight was not worth the additional shot.

Bear in mind, that a S/S double is regulated differently to put the patterns in the general same spot at either 25 or 40 yards, so you need to pattern the gun at those distances.

The O/U shotgun I also regulated, and you will want to pattern your gun at those distances, too.

Good luck!

[AspenBud]

Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance.

How does that work? My understanding is the powder charge doesn't change between shells, just the number of pellets. They should all fall at about the same distance regardless of whether they are 2 3/4 inch shells or magnum 3 1/2's. Or are you looking for maximum pellet density as the pattern spreads out? That would make more sense.

Sorry, I'm just curious. I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that magnum means something entirely different with shot shells than pistol and rifle ammo.

[Bob33]

Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance.

How does that work? My understanding is the powder charge doesn't change between shells, just the number of pellets. They should all fall at about the same distance regardless of whether they are 2 3/4 inch shells or magnum 3 1/2's. Or are you looking for maximum pellet density as the pattern spreads out? That would make more sense.

Sorry, I'm just curious. I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that magnum means something entirely different with shot shells than pistol and rifle ammo.

A 3" shell has room for more powder, more shot, or both. More powder means higher velocity which translates to greater energy per pellet. More shot means greater pattern density. At 40 yards instead of 3 or 4 pellets hitting a target, 4 or 5 pellets hit the target.

[AspenBud]

Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance.

How does that work? My understanding is the powder charge doesn't change between shells, just the number of pellets. They should all fall at about the same distance regardless of whether they are 2 3/4 inch shells or magnum 3 1/2's. Or are you looking for maximum pellet density as the pattern spreads out? That would make more sense.

Sorry, I'm just curious. I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that magnum means something entirely different with shot shells than pistol and rifle ammo.

A 3" shell has room for more powder, more shot, or both. More powder means higher velocity which translates to greater energy per pellet. More shot means greater pattern density. At 40 yards instead of 3 or 4 pellets hitting a target, 4 or 5 pellets hit the target.

Apparently you're right, I learn something new every day.

But at the end of it I would think that most shells would pattern similarly at about 40 yards so I'm guessing the expectation then is to have more lead on target at that range, not increased range resulting from more powder. You're still at the mercy of your choice of choke.

[birddogdad]

Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance.

How does that work? My understanding is the powder charge doesn't change between shells, just the number of pellets. They should all fall at about the same distance regardless of whether they are 2 3/4 inch shells or magnum 3 1/2's. Or are you looking for maximum pellet density as the pattern spreads out? That would make more sense.


Bob, if you arent tied to steel shot based areas hunting, you can load your own screaming 2 3/4 loads to reach out and touch them if your gun doesnt accept 3" as well...  Also Dave,  the Benelli ultralight autoloader is only 6 #, which makes for a nice all day carry....


Sorry, I'm just curious. I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that magnum means something entirely different with shot shells than pistol and rifle ammo.

A 3" shell has room for more powder, more shot, or both. More powder means higher velocity which translates to greater energy per pellet. More shot means greater pattern density. At 40 yards instead of 3 or 4 pellets hitting a target, 4 or 5 pellets hit the target.

[AspenBud]

Use 3-inch shells for chukar for the extra distance.

How does that work? My understanding is the powder charge doesn't change between shells, just the number of pellets. They should all fall at about the same distance regardless of whether they are 2 3/4 inch shells or magnum 3 1/2's. Or are you looking for maximum pellet density as the pattern spreads out? That would make more sense.


Bob, if you arent tied to steel shot based areas hunting, you can load your own screaming 2 3/4 loads to reach out and touch them if your gun doesnt accept 3" as well...  Also Dave, the Benelli ultralight autoloader is only 6 #, which makes for a nice all day carry....


Sorry, I'm just curious. I'm always surprised at how many people don't realize that magnum means something entirely different with shot shells than pistol and rifle ammo.

A 3" shell has room for more powder, more shot, or both. More powder means higher velocity which translates to greater energy per pellet. More shot means greater pattern density. At 40 yards instead of 3 or 4 pellets hitting a target, 4 or 5 pellets hit the target.

The ultralight isn't for everyone. If you're used to shooting a heavier gun that light weight can screw with your aim.

That said, if I had the cash I'd suffer the consequences and take the lighter weight.

[bobcat]

Yep, there are lots of lightweight autoloaders. My Remington 1100 LT 20 gauge is about as light as a feather. I also have a Franchi 12 gauge autoloader that must only be a couple of ounces more. The recoil isn't light, however, but for chukar hunting it doesn't matter. I only noticed it when I tried using it for trap shooting once.   

[AWS]

I have a couple of sub 6 pound 12ga sxs's never noticed the recoil on birds but the do get your attention on the skeet field, neither wears a recoil pad. 

[270Shooter]

From the little bit I have hunted them I will say they seem like pretty tough birds, lead 6's seem like a good load. They like to get up far when you bust a covey, but when you scatter the group out and find the singles and pairs they seem to hold much tighter. I prefer a 12 ga autoloader for pretty much all bird hunting. The benelli platform is lighter than most gas operated systems and in my experience, inertia guns are more reliable than gas guns.

[packmule]

All,
Thanks for the information.  This has been really helpful.  I appreciate it!

[joe_dumy]

I am a 16 guage fan. 1 oz traveling at max velocity is where its at for me.  I load 6 nickle or copper plated for the second shot and 7 1/2 for the first shot at the same wieght and velocity. I would get a 16 gauge Remington 31L if I had my choice of ultimate chukar guns. But I miss just fine with my Model 90 marlin. It is ultimately up to you and your loads will play just as much as a factor as your guns. so find something you shoot good with and stick with it. Because shots in the chukar hills are hard to come by and all must be cherished to find any kind of piece in life.

[merkelman]

Third shot is always nice. If you have a good dog or dogs as i do, you can hit them with 9's and follow up with 7.5 or 6's once the covey breaks. Use what you shoot well!  Lighter helps with the hike!  If you need 3 inchers why bother to shoot at all. SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING.

[ctwiggs1]

I come from a big game background that was followed by a military background, so I have never really cared about carrying  a gun all day.  It's kind of just part of the game. Generally speaking, I feel that my arms will outlast the dogs so I haven't had issues.  However, I am humble enough to admit that I am not in as good shape as I used to be, so maybe as I get older my mind will change.

I don't like having to sort through several guns, so my go-to has always been my 870 express that yes, I also use on ducks/geese.  For backup I have a beaten up Mossberg 500.  I've always appreciated the beauty of double barrels, but have never purchased as I can't justify the cost.

My Express was down all season last year and I ended up killing a lot of birds with my Mossberg.  I love that gun.

My wife typically carries a 20 pump and she also seems to do fine.

Curtis

[AspenBud]

I come from a big game background that was followed by a military background, so I have never really cared about carrying  a gun all day.  It's kind of just part of the game. Generally speaking, I feel that my arms will outlast the dogs so I haven't had issues.  However, I am humble enough to admit that I am not in as good shape as I used to be, so maybe as I get older my mind will change.

I don't like having to sort through several guns, so my go-to has always been my 870 express that yes, I also use on ducks/geese.  For backup I have a beaten up Mossberg 500.  I've always appreciated the beauty of double barrels, but have never purchased as I can't justify the cost.

My Express was down all season last year and I ended up killing a lot of birds with my Mossberg.  I love that gun.

My wife typically carries a 20 pump and she also seems to do fine.

Curtis

For all around durability you can't beat a pump gun, and considering the abuse a gun can take when chukar hunting that means something.

Thinking about it, a Browning BPS Upland Special in 16 gauge with 26" barrels would probably not be a bad option either. Carries like a 20 gauge, hits like a 12.

[jackson7]

Yes the purists say they prefer 2 barrels over everything else. However  when I take out the 20 gauge Ithaca and have a 3rd shot at a straggler most are wishing they had the same. As matter of fact a few have picked up the same gun to use as their devoted chukar guns.
Kind of like the fly fisherman using hardware. Just don't tell anyone.
I remind them that the pump is an American classic!
 

[Fishnfowler]

I've been shooting chukar for 36 years.  For me it is a 12 gauge SxS.  With that in mind, I will upon occasion drag a 20 up the hills, but I prefer a light 12 gauge game gun.  My favorite is the one in my avatar, a 12 gauge Ugartechea that weighs 6-1/2 pounds.  I went the route of the Ithaca 37.  Even when hunting Idaho, where I could stuff 5 shells in the gun, it never made a difference in my bag.  I can miss as well with 2 barrels as I can with one. 

As to the idea of being a purist, hunt with what blows your hair back.  As to the magical 3rd shot, that is a bunch of BS.   If someone thinks they can shoot as fast with an autoloader or pump as I can with my SxS, I challenge them to a contest of "fastest 25 shots."

At the end of the day it is always the quality of the hunt that counts, not the number in the bag.

Rob.

[wildweeds]

I'd comment that it's whatever you shoot well and............ don't care to much if it gets dinged,dented or scratched,guarantee that there will be a little bit of behind end time on the ground.

[merkelman]

I've been shooting chukar for 36 years.  For me it is a 12 gauge SxS.  With that in mind, I will upon occasion drag a 20 up the hills, but I prefer a light 12 gauge game gun.  My favorite is the one in my avatar, a 12 gauge Ugartechea that weighs 6-1/2 pounds.  I went the route of the Ithaca 37.  Even when hunting Idaho, where I could stuff 5 shells in the gun, it never made a difference in my bag.  I can miss as well with 2 barrels as I can with one. 

As to the idea of being a purist, hunt with what blows your hair back.  As to the magical 3rd shot, that is a bunch of BS.   If someone thinks they can shoot as fast with an autoloader or pump as I can with my SxS, I challenge them to a contest of "fastest 25 shots."

At the end of the day it is always the quality of the hunt that counts, not the number in the bag.

Rob.

a little wisdom... Happy 4th to all!

[nwwanderer]

I am in the whatever you shoot will corner.  I like the break actions for safety, good to look down that those tubes when you stumble up and down the breaks

[Curly]

I remember times when I was using my 870 (12 ga) and after emptying my gun, a couple stragglers jumped up at close range and flew away at with what would have been easy give-me shots...............(I swear they were laughing at me).      

[huntingfool7]

I'd comment that it's whatever you shoot well and............ don't care to much if it gets dinged,dented or scratched,guarantee that there will be a little bit of behind end time on the ground.

 
Something that won't have you staring at the ceiling, late at night, thinking about that scratch and dent.

[beninchelan]

Leave the fancy gun at home a light semi auto 12 &
Cheep 2 3/4 #6  shells. Or #4 in the snow ..

the best gun is the one that you shoot the best, remember those birds don't always  give the best shots & falls are hard on nice guns. I have a few that are testimony to that.  Also plan on carrying the gun for 8 hr so lighter is good.

[fethrduster]

Like Fish'nfowler, I've been hunting chukars for 32 yrs, and I used to carry an 8lb, full choke 12ga bps duck gun, because that's what I had.  Then I went to an 8lb 12ga o/u.  I shot ok with it, not great, but I didn't like the recoil either.  Then one day about 10 yrs ago I happened on a little 6lb belgian 16ga sxs, and on my first chukar hunt with it that fall, I got a triple and a double.  I've never looked back since, and my hits increased by going to a sxs vs a pump and o/u.  I don't have big hands, and I like the smaller, shallower frame of a 16 sxs in my hands.  It feels very instinctive. 16's hit like a 12, without having to resort to 3" magnums at longer ranges like you might in a 20.  To me, it seems like the perfect blend of weight/pointability and lethality.  1 or 1 1/8oz 6's in a light 16 double gun is a chukar's worst nightmare, and is something you'll enjoy carrying all day too.  A light 12 is also a great choice if you don't mind the larger frame and slightly increased recoil.

[Lee Root]

I kill a few chukars now and then.  I have been shooting a Beretta Onxy 686 12 gauge with 26 inch barrels. I bought it in 1989 if I remember correctly. I usually have improved and modified chokes in it. I wish it had 28 inch barrels, as I sometimes swing through birds and miss.  It is pretty banged up, and I had to glue the stock back together after I dropped it off of a cliff during a fall. It had a bead on the barrel, but it got knocked off during the same fall. I didn't notice it was gone for quite some time, as I never did look at it. For shells, I only shoot 7.5 handicap or sporting clays loads. When I find that I am taking shots that are too long, I will bring out a 28 gauge and shoot the same loads and shot size. It gets me back into not taking longer shots. My 28 is a semi and I hate the shells flying all over the place, and usually forget I have a third shot. Hit correctly, the 28 pounds them. My plan is to get a 28 over under with 28 inch barrels to replace the semi, and once I have that the 12 will stay home more often.

I also have three very good chukar dogs, one retired, one in the prime, a young male that is making the hunting really fun. Next season I will be taking out another pup who is going to be six months old in a couple of days. The dogs make the difference in my hunts.

Since we are dating ourselves: I shot my first chukar in the fall of 1974.

[packmule]

Again, thanks for all the input!

What are your recommendations, if any, for good side-by-side shotguns in the $500-$1000 price range?

[huntingfool7]

Again, thanks for all the input!

What are your recommendations, if any, for good side-by-side shotguns in the $500-$1000 price range?

Older and used with a couple triggers.  Good single selective triggers don't translate well to cheap.

[CP]

Again, thanks for all the input!

What are your recommendations, if any, for good side-by-side shotguns in the $500-$1000 price range?

Take a look at the CZ Bobwhite -

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-bobwhite-12-26-5-choke-tubes/

[fethrduster]

Again, thanks for all the input!

What are your recommendations, if any, for good side-by-side shotguns in the $500-$1000 price range?

Lots of good guns out there in that price range.  Older and used, with double triggers, indeed.  I just bought a 1910 Lefever 16ga sxs today in that price range that will hopefully be my go-to chukar gun.  Just get on gunbroker and do a sxs search.   I have an ffl and buy/sell often also. 

[jackson7]

ugartechea, skb, miroku are a couple.
be careful on older sxs as many have more drop on their stocks which will affect your shooting. Restocking is an expensive proposition. hit some of the used gun stores to get a feel for what you like.

[Dave Workman]

Yep, there are lots of lightweight autoloaders. My Remington 1100 LT 20 gauge is about as light as a feather. I also have a Franchi 12 gauge autoloader that must only be a couple of ounces more. The recoil isn't light, however, but for chukar hunting it doesn't matter. I only noticed it when I tried using it for trap shooting once.   

That's pretty common. One rarely feels recoil when shooting at a live target. It's at the range where recoil becomes the bugaboo, because the target really isn't getting away and you're not at risk of losing something for the bag. (Who ever ate a clay disk?)

I cannot recall having ever felt recoil when shooting at live game, whether birds or bucks or bunnies...

[Dave Workman]

Then one day about 10 yrs ago I happened on a little 6lb belgian 16ga sxs, and on my first chukar hunt with it that fall, I got a triple and a double.  I've never looked back since, and my hits increased by going to a sxs vs a pump and o/u.  I don't have big hands, and I like the smaller, shallower frame of a 16 sxs in my hands.  It feels very instinctive. 16's hit like a 12, without having to resort to 3" magnums at longer ranges like you might in a 20. 

HA! My first shotgun was an old single shot 16 H&R exposed hammer gun that didn't have a front bead. My dad swapped some guy a .380 Beretta Model 1934 pistol for that gun (today I wish he'd kept the Beretta, it was a dandy) and I killed several grouse with it before buying my first double, the 12-gauge Beretta.

I'm surprised the 16-gauge doesn't get more attention because it is a hell of a round. As you suggest, a great "compromise" between the 12- and 20. The "sweet 16" is something of an anachronism because it was never offered in a 3-inch version like the 12- and 20- but in the right hands, as you have discovered, it is hell on wheels for upland birds.

[jetjockey]

Probably because there is really nothing you can't kill with a 20ga.  I keep saying Im going to buy a 16, but just can't pull the trigger.  We hunt SD every couple years for pheasants.  Everyone in our group shoots 20's.  There is no upland bird in the world that 1 oz of #4's or 5's won't kill easily out to 40+ yards. With that said, I've also handled several English Best 12 ga's that weighed in around 6 1/2-6 3/4 lbs.  let's just say that if I was rich, Id have one!

[merkelman]

The Spanish are among some pretty dandy doubles for a great price if you look in the right spots. I just came across my new mountain gun at about 6 lbs.   I agree that 20 will take any bird down just fine given the proper load!  Can't wait till September!

[AWS]

This is a nice little Bernardelli BLE 12 ga. that comes in at 5#15oz. I usually run 2 1/2"(it does have 2 3/4" chambers but most of my guns are 2 1/2") 1oz of 6's for pheasant, huns and sharptail.  I picked it up off of GB in your price range.

[Dave Workman]

This is a nice little Bernardelli BLE 12 ga. that comes in at 5#15oz. I usually run 2 1/2"(it does have 2 3/4" chambers but most of my guns are 2 1/2") 1oz of 6's for pheasant, huns and sharptail.  I picked it up off of GB in your price range.

CRIPES! That almost looks like my Beretta! I think Bernardelli was one of their off-shoots. My gun has a monte carlo comb, straight grip, nickel silver receiver, double triggers...similar wood. 

[chukar hunter]

Leave the fancy gun at home a light semi auto 12 &
Cheep 2 3/4 #6  shells. Or #4 in the snow ..

Best advice so far!  You don't want to be worrying about the finish on your nice gun when your sidehilling 60 degree frozen slopes pushing to the next rock outcropping or cover.  Been rocking Pump Rem 870 for years and have killed dozens of chukar.  I'd rather go heavy on the lead than worry about winging one and watch it lock it's wings and sail down a 1000 vertical feet.