Big Magnums - Marketing genius?

[7mag.]

What you guys are saying about bullet drop is very true. What you are forgetting is energy transfer at extended ranges. Some cartridges just hit harder at ranges past 250-300.

[Hacksaw]

What you are forgetting is energy transfer at extended ranges. Some cartridges just hit harder at ranges past 250-300.

That is very true. However the case I was referring to is a difference of only 145 ft/lbs at 400 yds. For other bullets and loads, I know the differences are bigger. I don't worry too much about looking at the charts for distances past 400 yds, mostly because I don't think most guys,including myself, can shoot accurately enough past that distance to make bullet energy the most important factor in killing an animal.

I am not arguing that big magnums have their place, and the whole "Best of the West" series and there videos "Beyond Belief" really have me wanting a 7mm mag just to see what I could do. I just know I don't really need it. Hell, if I had the money though I'd have 'em all. My belief is that for most of Washington's big game the best gun is probably the one you shoot the best and have the most confidence in, regardless of caliber (to some extent).

I just get frustrated because my old man and I are fortunate enough to have our own shooting range with benches at 100, 200, 300, and 400. You can get back to 475 yds if we mow a bit more. When you have a range, it seems like everyone shows up about September to get "dialed in." In the group of guys that come out each year, all of the worst shooters are the guys shooting big magnums. These guys flinch all over the place, but then brag about how they can knock down an elk at 500yds if they need to. I laugh to myself because what I am really think is "yeah, you've got more energy for knocking the leg or the ass off an elk." In no way am I trying to generalize this to all magnum shooters, just this group guys. I just get a real chuckle when they can't shoot a group at 100 yds, but they all want to move back to 300 yds and 400 yds. I really chuckle when one of them hands me the gun after everyone has left and asks me to see if a can get it dialed in at 100 yds for them.

[7mag.]

I know exactly what you are talking about. I see those guys all the time at the range I belong to. In fact, my little brother missed a couple of nice bucks one year, and he came to me for help, because I used to be a marksman instructor in the Marine's. I took him to the range with his 7mm. ultra mag. and I discovered that he was flinching a ton. It took a lot of work to break him of his habbit and I don't know if it will stick, because, like so many others, he only shoots his rifle to check zero, just before the season. All the money spent on big magnums and expensive optics is great, but it doesn't in any way, take the place of knowledge, practice, ethics, and skill.

[Bofire]

 :)What does "hit harder" mean? is that a lighter projectile at higher velocity or a heavy projectile at slow?? How many cartridges have you worked with that went from 0 to 300 on a string then fell down, how many that shoot "ok" 0-300 but just keep on going at long range due to heavy projectile?
My point is the term, Magnum, means nothing.
I would rather shoot my 30/06 with a 180 at 2700fps, at a 1000 yard match than my 22-250 at 3600fps with a 55 grain.
Carl

[300UltraMagShooter]

Funny, I found it is exactly opposite.  When at the range, it is always the guys that are afraid of the magnums that need a few lessons.  Once you learn to shoot correctly, you should never have a problem from one gun to the next.  What difference is there between a 24 ft pounds at the shoulder or 36 ft pounds?  It is non-existant after a little practice. 

When shooting, I practice watching the bullet hit the target.  If you do this (which I know you can't actually do this with any bullet bigger than a 22 long), you will have no way to flinch because you are focusing on what you should be focusing on and not the kick. 

I grew up shooting a 22 long all the time.  With a 22 and a little practice, you can actually watch the bullet hit at around 100 yards.  This is a great way to learn good technique.

[Hacksaw]

What difference is there between a 24 ft pounds at the shoulder or 36 ft pounds?

About 12 ft/lbs. ......................Or 50% increase in recoil.

When at the range, it is always the guys that are afraid of the magnums that need a few lessons.  Once you learn to shoot correctly, you should never have a problem from one gun to the next.

What's funny is that if a person doesn't think a magnum is necessary, then they are accused of being afraid of them. Actually, because of it's lightweight, my .280 mtn rifle kicks as hard or harder than many of the magnums I shoot. I also usually end up sighting in the magnums for the guys who think hitting a paper plate twice at a hundred is dialed in. The point I was trying to make is that, at least for the abnormal group that shoot I've shot with, many, not all, of the people shooting magnums still haven't learned to shoot necessarily any better than everyone else or even extremely well for that matter, yet they think they need a rifle to extend their shooting capabilities at game.

[300UltraMagShooter]

You are talking numbers and the last time I checked, 1/2 increase does not come out to 150%.     In practice though, it is mostly in the head.  When I first got my magnum, I flinched badly because I was conditioned to believe it kicked hard.  With a little practice, I realized it was much ado about nothing.

What difference is there between a 24 ft pounds at the shoulder or 36 ft pounds?

About 12 ft/lbs. Or a 150% increase in felt recoil.

When at the range, it is always the guys that are afraid of the magnums that need a few lessons.  Once you learn to shoot correctly, you should never have a problem from one gun to the next.

What's funny is that if you don't think a magnum is necessary, then your accused of being afraid of them. Actually, because of it's lightweight, my .280 mtn rifle kicks as hard or harder than many of the magnums I shoot. I also usually end up sighting in the magnums for the guys who think hitting a paper plate twice at a hundred is dialed in. The point I was trying to make is that, at least for the abnormal group that shoot I've shot with, many, not all, of the people shooting magnums still haven't learned to shoot necessarily any better than everyone else or even extremely well for that matter, yet they think they need a rifle to extend their shooting capabilities at game.

I , and most other magnum shooters I know, never said that magnums are necessary.  They are just fun.  I simply like the extra power, and I can't honestly tell the difference in kick.  My 300 ultra with a recoil pad kicks about like my cousins 06 without the pad and I get a lot more down range energy.  What is the big deal?  Not saying the magnum is needed, but I sure do like having it.  And yes, if you are worried about the kick, then you would by definition be afraid of it.

[7mag.]

You are probably right about the term "magnum". It is probably just a title put on some cartridges for the sake of marketing. As far as what I mean by "hit harder", is the transfer of energy at the point of impact. Some cartridges seem to run out of gas at an extended range, where as some seem to keep their velocity a little better. Keep in mind, that I am by no means an expert on the subject, or really know what I am talking about at all. This is just my opinion, based on my experience.

[GoldTip]

I have several "magnum" rifles, starting with a 300winny and going up.  Also have several non-magnums starting with a 25-06 and going up to a 30-06.  All of them (magnum and non-magnum) make stuff very dead, and dead is pretty much what we're all going for I assume.  I have made some shots which I was very glad I was carrying a rifle with some extra giddy up that day and some shots where the extra giddy up was simply wasted on the ground on the far side of an animal.  I have also killed some animals at what some would consider very long range with some of my non-magnum calibers and they were also very dead, have also passed a couple of shots when packing those non-magnums, but never regretted carrying it that day.  Is a "magnum" caliber necessary, that all depends on a whole lot of variables.  Most times, it's most likely unneeded firepower, but once in a while, it can come in handy when ya really need it.

[Hacksaw]

Sorry 300 UltraMagShooter, I didn't mean to put that 1 in front of the 50. I just couldn't resist the 12 ft/lbs thing though. Just trying to keep it light. By the way, I've never mentioned being bothered by recoil. I just said that some of the guys shooting at our range flinch like they got Turret's or something - probably wouldn't matter if they were shooting their .338 mags or a .243. i'm sure you've seen guys like this too. The ones who give themselves whiplash on a dryfire because they forget to chamber a round. You're right, mental conditioning and just plain old time at the range learning to shoot goes a long way no matter what you're shooting. And, just so you know, I'm saving up for a magnum. Just haven't decided which one yet. I'm open for suggestions.

[300UltraMagShooter]

Yeah, I guess I teed that one up huh?   

I can't say that I could give you any good suggestions beyond the 300 ultra.  I am still testing myself.  One thing I can say about my 300 ultra is if I load it to 06 levels and 150 grain loads,  it gets incredible MOA.  If I can ever get the larger loads (200 grain plus) to do the same, this is going to be one awesome gun.  Right now, I am get just over 1 MOA with 200 grain federal premium nosler partition.  I am working on some hand loads, but it is still a learning process for me. I just got it last year, so I am still working on getting the best out of it. 

Sorry 300 UltraMagShooter, I didn't mean to put that 1 in front of the 50. I just couldn't resist the 12 ft/lbs thing though. Just trying to keep it light. By the way, I've never mentioned being bothered by recoil. I just said that some of the guys shooting at our range flinch like they got Turret's or something - probably wouldn't matter if they were shooting their .338 mags or a .243. i'm sure you've seen guys like this too. The ones who give themselves whiplash on a dryfire because they forget to chamber a round. You're right, mental conditioning and just plain old time at the range learning to shoot goes a long way no matter what you're shooting. And, just so you know, I'm saving up for a magnum. Just haven't decided which one yet. I'm open for suggestions.

[Curly]

I'd say most of the time a magnum is not necessary.  How far are the majority of a hunter's shots?  I'd guess most shots are well under 200 yards.  Your non-magnum cartridges like the 30-06, 280, 270......are all very capable of killing game up to and beyond 300 yards.  Also, the trajectory of those three cartridges are flat enough to not require hold-over out to about 300 yards if sighted 2 or 3 inches high at 100 yards.

That said, I hunt w/ a .300Win mag for all my rifle hunting.  A couple hundred fps advantage over the -06 isn't "necessary" but it is nice.  Although, I've never killed an animal with my magnum rifle that I could not have killed with a non-magnum.

[Chopaka81]

MY first rifle was a 7mm Rem Mag. Still have it and I will most likely take to my grave with me. It is a lights-out shooter, very comfortable to shoot, and I have had a need to reload it after sending a round down range. I have complete trust in it.

These days, I have rifles chambered well above it, and several below it. I do have to say I have less and less regard for the excessive freebore WBY Mags. I a 257 & a 300 Wby, they have gone squirally on me.

I am going to send the Rem M700 in 300Wby off to Shawn Carlock and have it rebarreled to a 338 Edge. This is a awesum cartridge that is very capable of 1500yds and beyond.

I do like the 270 Win for the close in stuff.

[cohoho]

A article from AK Department of fish and Game....  Makes perfect sense, you wouldn't believe how many people bought the BIG Guns and were at the range and couldn't shoot crap.... 

Choosing a Firearm,
Cartridge and Bullet
How accurately you shoot is more important than the type of rifle, cartridge, and bullet you choose. Alaska has some very large game animals, including 1600-pound mature bull moose and 1500-pound coastal brown bears. Moose or brown bear hit in the gut with a large caliber magnum rifle such as the popular .338 Winchester® Magnum is wounded and just as likely to escape as if it had been hit with a small caliber rifle such as the .243 Winchester®. The bore size, bullet weight, and velocity are of secondary importance to precise bullet placement in the vital heart-lung area.

It is important for the hunter to have a good knowledge of game anatomy, the ability to correctly judge distance, the discipline to take only shots that can be made with certainty, and the ability to shoot accurately from sitting, kneeling, and standing positions. As long as the caliber is reasonable and a quality bullet is used, hunters kill game quickly and humanely with precise bullet placement.

If you presently own a rifle chambered for the .270 Winchester, 7mm-08, .308 Winchester or .30-06 and can place all of your shots in an 8-inch circle out to 200 yards from a sitting or kneeling position you can be a successful Alaskan hunter. To be as effective as possible these cartridges should be loaded with premium quality bullets such as the Nosler Partition®. If hit in the heart-lung area with a 180 grain Nosler Partition® fired from a .30-06, the bullet will pass completely through a mature bull moose, interior grizzly, or black bear.

Big magnums not needed
Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaskan game. This is simply not true. The recoil and noise of these large cartridges is unpleasant at best and plainly painful to many shooters. It is very difficult to concentrate on shot placement when your brain and body remembers the unpleasant recoil and noise which occurs when you pull the trigger on one of the big magnums.

The two most common complaints of professional Alaskan guides are hunters who are not in good physical condition and hunters who cannot accurately shoot their rifles. Because they do not practice enough they cannot shoot accurately enough. They miss their best chance at taking their dream animal or worse yet, they wound and lose an animal. Most experienced guides prefer the hunter come to camp with a .270 or .30-06 rifle they can shoot well rather than a shiny new magnum that has been fired just enough to get sighted-in. If you are going to hunt brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula or Kodiak Island, a .30-06 loaded with 200 or 220 grain Nosler® or similar premium bullet will do the job with good shot placement. Only consider using a .300, .338 or larger magnum if you can shoot it as well as you can the .30-06.

It is very popular now to purchase large magnum rifles equipped with a muzzle brake. Most muzzle brakes are very effective at reducing recoil. A .375 magnum with a muzzle brake recoils much like a .30-06. Before you are convinced that you should use a muzzle-braked rifle in Alaska, you should consider its disadvantages.

A muzzle-brake increases the muzzle blast and noise to levels that quickly damage the ear. Even when just sighting in or practicing, everyone near you at the range will find the blast and noise bothersome. Anyone near the muzzle brake when the rifle is fired may suffer hearing loss or physical damage to the ear.

You cannot wear ear protection when you are hunting and neither can your hunting partners or guide. An increasing number of guides will not allow a hunter to use a muzzle brake because of the danger of hearing loss.

Rifle weight reduces recoil
Rather than rely on a muzzle-brake to reduce recoil, use a rifle heavy enough to reduce recoil. If you are planning on packing out moose meat, caribou meat, or a brown bear hide weighing hundreds of pounds, you can carry a 9- to 11-pound rifle including scope. A rifle of this weight in .300 or .338 magnum can be mastered with a lot of practice. You can also avoid using a muzzle-brake by selecting a cartridge that you can shoot comfortably and enjoy shooting enough to practice often. For most hunters, the upper limit of recoil is the .30-06 or 7mm Remington Magnum®. A majority of hunters are more comfortable with a .308 or .270.

What type of action should you use?
If you are choosing a rifle for Alaskan hunting, you should strongly consider a modern bolt action rifle made of stainless steel bedded in a synthetic stock. The Browning A-Bolt® and Savage® 116 are excellent examples of all-weather Alaskan rifles. The bolt action is recommended because it is mechanically simple, can be partially disassembled in the field for cleaning, and is the most reliable action under poor weather conditions. Stainless steel is excellent for most Alaskan hunting because it resists rust caused by rain or snow. Stainless steel will rust in time and must be maintained after each day of field use.

Round-nosed or pointed bullets?
A high quality rifle bullet placed into the heart or lungs of a big game animal at approximately 2000 to 2800 feet per second will expand or “mushroom” and destroy the vital organs. The shape of the bullet has no direct effect on its function, its accuracy, or its ability to kill. A “round-nosed” bullet that penetrates and destroys a vital organ is just as effective as the most streamlined of bullets.

However, a pointed bullet does not lose velocity as quickly as a round-nosed bullet. For example, a .30-06 firing a 180 grain pointed bullet which leaves the barrel at 2700 feet per second, is travelling 2300 feet per second at 200 yards. In comparison, a round-nosed 180 grain bullet at the same speed will have slowed to 2000 feet per second at the same distance, because the pointed bullet can cut through the air with less resistance just like a sleek fighter jet. Under actual field conditions, this will make no difference between a good hit, bad hit, or miss. At distances beyond 200 yards, a pointed bullet will not drop as quickly as a round-nosed bullet. Most hunters should not shoot big game at distances further than 200 yards.

Quality is more important than shape
The bullet shape is not as important as the quality of the bullet and how well your rifle will shoot a particular bullet. Some rifles will shoot a pointed bullet more accurately and some will shoot a round-nosed bullet more accurately. You should try quality bullets of both shapes to find out which weight and shape your firearm prefers.

How Much Performance Can You Stand?
“Modern…cartridges already burn more powder, make more noise and kick us harder than makes sense. The current trend to bigger brass borders on a collective obsession with brute force. I talked with one [hunter] who told me that a deer he’d shot from behind with a magnum cartridge had flipped end for end. He paused to let that sink in, as if flinging deer around like bowling pins was every man’s passion. I’m afraid it was all lost on me. My measure of a hunt differs. Velocity, powder weight and bullet weight all contribute to recoil. Extra rifle weight will absorb some recoil. A well shaped stock and soft pad will help you handle recoil, but they won’t diminish it. For that you need a muzzle brake. The device tames kick but is bad medicine afield where you can’t wear earmuffs. We needn’t stop Panzers in the aspens; our bullets need only kill animals. I have never seen a well-hit elk stay on its feet for more than a few yards of travel.
Hard kicking rifles that are expensive to shoot commonly spend most of their time in the rack at home. You may not consciously avoid shooting powerful rifles, but you’re less likely to shoot them often. Result: insufficient practice.… Dead doesn’t come in degrees. And a well placed bullet from a .30-06 cartridge or its kin kills game animals dead as far as most of us can hit with certainty on the hunt.

Hunters typically want to shoot farther than they have to shoot. Usually there’s a way to get a close shot when you have a long one…. If you routinely spook game your stalking skills need polish.

The ‘fling an arrow before he gets away’ philosophy leaves a lot of animals dying slowly back in the black timber. Hunting is not a just a game. The animal isn’t armor-plated and suffers greatly for a bad shot.”
Excepted from, Wayne van Zwoll, “How Much Performance Can You Stand?” Bugle, July/Aug. 1998.

 

How Far Should I Shoot?
“The elk stepped clear of the aspens at about 400 yards. He was a grand bull, the one we'd come for. The hunter's rifle lay still across my spotting scope; the tripod already adjusted for his position. But he didn't shoot.

Why? Because 400 yards is a blooming long shot, that's why! Even with a .300 magnum on a solid rest, you'll seldom hit where you want to at 400 steps. But these days, the hills are full of hunters who say they routinely kill game at 400 yards. Are they daft or am I?

Except on flat, featureless terrain, we commonly guess long. Some hunters who claim long shooting have only their own estimate or the guide's as proof. It feels good to think we've shot long.

Of course, some hunters have made very long shots. Some of these fellows are exceptional marksmen. The rest have been lucky. My own records of guided hunters show that beyond 200 yards the probability of a fatal hit drops dramatically. Farther than that, there's only an even chance the hunter will hit vitals the size of a fruit basket. The few shooters who score consistently beyond the 200-yard mark can do it as handily with a .30-06 as with the latest super magnum.

Does that mean that hot-dog cartridges are worthless? Well, no. However, more powerful cartridges kick harder and make more noise, and if the hunter has trouble shooting them accurately, the somewhat flatter trajectory does them little good. A .30-06 or .308 will shoot flat enough for a “point blank” range of 250 yards if you zero at 200; besides, most big game is killed at ranges of under 200 yards, where you don't need more bullet speed.

Accurate bullet placement matters more than speed or energy at any range. Hunters shooting .270's and .30-06's can be deadlier than hunters with bigger rifles who have developed a flinch from blast or recoil. Within 200 yards ordinary cartridges have energy to spare for bullet expansion and penetration.

Shooting targets from a bench gives hunters a false sense of security because the support holds the rifle still. If you want to know how you'll fare in the field, get off the bench, jog to the 100-yard target frame and back again, then hastily get into a hunting position and squeeze off one shot. Repeat 10 times. That group won't be as small as those you fired from the bench.

Remember, group size and placement both matter. Draw an eight-inch circle around the aiming point to represent the vitals. Then count the number of bullet holes outside the ring. Your maximum effective range, in my view, is that at which you can keep nine of 10 shots in this circle. It just makes sense to be 90 percent sure of a killing hit before pulling the trigger.

Effective range varies with your shooting position. Standing, I'm not much of a threat beyond 120 yards. Kneeling, with a sling, I'm dangerous to about 180. Sitting, I'll shoot to 250.

At 400 yards a rifle that shoots 2-inch groups at 100 yards (from a bench rest) is already scattering bullets over an area almost as big as the vitals area. Add a 40-yard error in range estimation (at 10 percent that's a small error; but your bullet drops twice as far between 300 and 400 yards as between the muzzle and 300). Add a slight muscle twitch, a little side pressure on the trigger, the thump of your heart at the wrong time ....

And then there's the wind. The effect of wind increases dramatically with range. A modest 10 m.p.h. crosswind can push a .270 bullet 15 inches at 400 yards — but that same breeze moves it less than 4 inches at 200 yards. Unlike gravity, wind direction or speed cannot be predicted. At the target both direction and speed may be different than they seem to you at your position. Sudden gusts, letoffs, and direction changes can foil your attempts at determining wind, and that lethal bullet can skate off course like a Ping-Pong ball in the blast of a fan.

The key to more successful hunting isn't reaching farther with your rifle; it's knowing how far you can shoot effectively, getting within that yardage, and taking care with every shot.

Practice counts too, as my hunter learned when the bull we'd been watching drifted out of the timber 400 yards away and angled toward us. At 300 yards, in failing light, the animal stopped. 'Your call,' I whispered. 'I can do it,' he said and squeezed the trigger. Fourteen rounds later the bull died. Even 300 yards is a blooming long shot.”
Excepted from, Wayne van Zwoll, “Reaching Out,” Field & Stream, Sept. 1999.

 

[addicted]

if it can't make your scope hit you in the face then it aint got no poop to it, and if it and got no poop to it then it aint no fun.