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Author Topic: Silencer placement  (Read 6271 times)

Offline HillSlick

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Silencer placement
« on: April 16, 2015, 03:56:59 PM »
Hey guys, been havin some difficulty silencing my bow.

63lbs at 31.5"

After ALOT of trial and error I got a little upset and decided "won't cooperate? Fine!"

What do you guys think?

2 sets of  rubber cat whiskers and Rabbit fur silencers in between.




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Offline 4fletch

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 12:40:22 AM »
Check out 3 rivers archery revcurve string silencers on the web.

Offline HillSlick

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 11:24:29 PM »
I will, thank you!


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Offline Todd_ID

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 07:58:48 PM »
I don't see a problem with adding them. My recurve is the exact same noise level as my compounds,  but I put little stock in bow noise. We'll never get them as quiet as we want, and we'll never outsmart a buck's ears.
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Offline HillSlick

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2015, 08:44:36 PM »

I don't see a problem with adding them. My recurve is the exact same noise level as my compounds,  but I put little stock in bow noise. We'll never get them as quiet as we want, and we'll never outsmart a buck's ears.

That is true, and good to remember.


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Offline mountainman

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 10:26:06 AM »
Heavier arrow? raise the brace?
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Offline SGTDuffman

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 08:31:27 PM »
I'm guessing you already messed with the brace height. I can't tell what kind of bow that is, it looks to be some sort of Bear, but in general a longbow should likely be between 6.5-7.5" on brace height and a recurve between 7.5-8.5", again, just in general. It should be relatively easy to find on the manufacturers page to find out exactly what range you should be within. Sometimes it can be arrow related as well, either spine issues bouncing the shaft off of the riser, or nock height issues bouncing the shaft off the shelf. If non of that worked, I'd try heavier shafts. All bows, compounds included, are more efficient when shooting heavier arrows. The stored energy in the limbs is used to propel the string forward, powering the arrow with it. Some of that energy is lost as drag when the string cuts through the air, some is wasted as vibration or noise, the rest goes into the arrow. Heavier arrows take more of the stored energy to move, and leave less of it to be wasted as noise or vibration. Wool puffs and the like slow the string down a bit and cut down on that noise.

I don't know if you shoot a compound as well as traditional stuff, but I did some testing a few years ago shooting heavy and light arrows out of my bow. The heavy were 650 grains, the light were 400 grains, both out of a 60# bow. While the lights obviously went faster, the heavy were more efficient when turning up the poundage of the bow and were significantly quieter. When I turned the poundage up 5#, the lighter arrows got about 5fps faster, the heavy got 12fps faster. The heavier arrows more efficiently got energy from the limbs. What I lost as sound with the heavier arrows, I gained as more speed and efficiency, at any given poundage. I always hear people talking about KE as it relates to bows, but that is a completely useless metric to use in relation to bows and arrows. Arrows don't kill though kinetic energy transfer like a gun does, arrows kill by cutting. In a perfect world a firearm would transfer all of it's KE into the target with just enough left over to make it 1" out the far side and fall to the ground. That's what hollow point are for. Transferring kinetic energy. And arrow is the exact opposite. You want it to go through, and thus cut as much as possible before it stops or slows down. That's why people want the sharpest broadheads, the smallest diameter shafts, and fastest most powerful bows. No bow in the world shoots anywhere near supersonic, so KE is pointless. Momentum is everything for an arrow. I want it to stop for nothing until it's in the ground on the far side. To that end I shoot heavy arrows, within reason. I find that around 10 grains per pound work out perfectly for me, in both compounds and traditional gear. They are quieter, they stop for nothing, it's relatively easy for me to make them from readily available supplies, and they aren't unduly slow. I'll take a 650gr arrow at 220fps over a 400gr arrow at 270fps every day of the week. KE wise, it's a wash, momentum wise, the heavier one has 35% more.

Offline HillSlick

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Silencer placement
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2015, 12:14:42 PM »
I'm guessing you already messed with the brace height. I can't tell what kind of bow that is, it looks to be some sort of Bear, but in general a longbow should likely be between 6.5-7.5" on brace height and a recurve between 7.5-8.5", again, just in general. It should be relatively easy to find on the manufacturers page to find out exactly what range you should be within. Sometimes it can be arrow related as well, either spine issues bouncing the shaft off of the riser, or nock height issues bouncing the shaft off the shelf. If non of that worked, I'd try heavier shafts. All bows, compounds included, are more efficient when shooting heavier arrows. The stored energy in the limbs is used to propel the string forward, powering the arrow with it. Some of that energy is lost as drag when the string cuts through the air, some is wasted as vibration or noise, the rest goes into the arrow. Heavier arrows take more of the stored energy to move, and leave less of it to be wasted as noise or vibration. Wool puffs and the like slow the string down a bit and cut down on that noise.

I don't know if you shoot a compound as well as traditional stuff, but I did some testing a few years ago shooting heavy and light arrows out of my bow. The heavy were 650 grains, the light were 400 grains, both out of a 60# bow. While the lights obviously went faster, the heavy were more efficient when turning up the poundage of the bow and were significantly quieter. When I turned the poundage up 5#, the lighter arrows got about 5fps faster, the heavy got 12fps faster. The heavier arrows more efficiently got energy from the limbs. What I lost as sound with the heavier arrows, I gained as more speed and efficiency, at any given poundage. I always hear people talking about KE as it relates to bows, but that is a completely useless metric to use in relation to bows and arrows. Arrows don't kill though kinetic energy transfer like a gun does, arrows kill by cutting. In a perfect world a firearm would transfer all of it's KE into the target with just enough left over to make it 1" out the far side and fall to the ground. That's what hollow point are for. Transferring kinetic energy. And arrow is the exact opposite. You want it to go through, and thus cut as much as possible before it stops or slows down. That's why people want the sharpest broadheads, the smallest diameter shafts, and fastest most powerful bows. No bow in the world shoots anywhere near supersonic, so KE is pointless. Momentum is everything for an arrow. I want it to stop for nothing until it's in the ground on the far side. To that end I shoot heavy arrows, within reason. I find that around 10 grains per pound work out perfectly for me, in both compounds and traditional gear. They are quieter, they stop for nothing, it's relatively easy for me to make them from readily available supplies, and they aren't unduly slow. I'll take a 650gr arrow at 220fps over a 400gr arrow at 270fps every day of the week. KE wise, it's a wash, momentum wise, the heavier one has 35% more.

It's a 60" bear super Kodiak, 63.5 lbs at 31.5" brace height is 7.75"

Right now I'm using lighter gold tip shafts, I want to buy the Byron furgeson heavy hunter shafts, but I just can't afford them


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« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 11:09:11 AM by HillSlick »

Offline SGTDuffman

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2015, 08:37:13 PM »
Bear suggests a brace height of 8-9" for that, but you should be fine where you're at. I take it the bow is marked 55#. Which arrows are you using? You can add footers and insert or point weigh to get the weight up. At your draw length, you'd likely have to add both, because there isn't a whole lot of manipulating you can do to the arrow with a 31.5" draw, as far as shaft length and the like. I understand not wanting to get a hole new batch of arrows or mess around having to bare shaft and stuff all over again, but there are some things you can try if you wanna add some weight. Adding weigh to the point will lower the dynamic spine, but adding a footer will bring it back up, and both will add weight fairly quickly. A 4" footer will add ~50 grains and about 10lbs of spine, depending on the shaft you use. Adding another 50 gr to your point will bring those 10 lbs of spine back down and leave you about where you started, except 100gr heavier. The points would be cheap enough for target points or what have you, and half a dozen aluminum shafts can be had for $30 or less, and that'd be enough to foot about 4 dozen arrows. You could mess with adding insert weight too, depending on the inserts you have now, though it's harder to do, because you'd have to deconstruct your arrows. There are ways of doing that relatively easily as well if you're interested.

Offline HillSlick

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2015, 11:51:06 PM »

Bear suggests a brace height of 8-9" for that, but you should be fine where you're at. I take it the bow is marked 55#. Which arrows are you using? You can add footers and insert or point weigh to get the weight up. At your draw length, you'd likely have to add both, because there isn't a whole lot of manipulating you can do to the arrow with a 31.5" draw, as far as shaft length and the like. I understand not wanting to get a hole new batch of arrows or mess around having to bare shaft and stuff all over again, but there are some things you can try if you wanna add some weight. Adding weigh to the point will lower the dynamic spine, but adding a footer will bring it back up, and both will add weight fairly quickly. A 4" footer will add ~50 grains and about 10lbs of spine, depending on the shaft you use. Adding another 50 gr to your point will bring those 10 lbs of spine back down and leave you about where you started, except 100gr heavier. The points would be cheap enough for target points or what have you, and half a dozen aluminum shafts can be had for $30 or less, and that'd be enough to foot about 4 dozen arrows. You could mess with adding insert weight too, depending on the inserts you have now, though it's harder to do, because you'd have to deconstruct your arrows. There are ways of doing that relatively easily as well if you're interested.

Well I'm using 400 alone shafts with 125 grain tips, this is a weaker spine than I should be using I know, but, it's all I have at the moment, I've been saving up to get some 340s, but I just haven't gotten the money in my pocket yet, sadly.

Footing the shaft is a good idea, If it's not too procey I might give it a go. After some digin I found that people said a lot of good things about their footed shafts.


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Offline SGTDuffman

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2015, 11:03:33 AM »
Without knowing anything about your arrows, I assumed you had the standard 11.4gr aluminum insert, and left the shafts at 32".

Gold Tip Trad 400 (55/75) at 32" with 3 - 4" feathers, 15gr nock, 125gr point, 11.4gr insert, and a 5.5" footer at 13.8gr per inch (75.9gr) comes out at a dynamic spine of 76.9#
Bear Super Kodiak @ 55# drawn to 31.5" with a 16 strand fastflight string comes out to a dynamic spine of 76.8#

Total arrow weight then would be ~530gr. I've got some 175gr field points I could probably give you if you're near Seattle, got some shafts you could use for footers on those arrows too. Those points with a 6 3/4" footer would spine within 1/2# of the bow and the total weight would be right around 600gr.

Offline HillSlick

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2015, 12:11:28 PM »

Without knowing anything about your arrows, I assumed you had the standard 11.4gr aluminum insert, and left the shafts at 32".

Gold Tip Trad 400 (55/75) at 32" with 3 - 4" feathers, 15gr nock, 125gr point, 11.4gr insert, and a 5.5" footer at 13.8gr per inch (75.9gr) comes out at a dynamic spine of 76.9#
Bear Super Kodiak @ 55# drawn to 31.5" with a 16 strand fastflight string comes out to a dynamic spine of 76.8#

Total arrow weight then would be ~530gr. I've got some 175gr field points I could probably give you if you're near Seattle, got some shafts you could use for footers on those arrows too. Those points with a 6 3/4" footer would spine within 1/2# of the bow and the total weight would be right around 600gr.

That would be awesome, I actually go to UW.

The bow is marked to 50# @ 28"
It's weird though, I've had it's draw weight measured multiple times, and it comes out to 56# at 28" and 63.5# @ 31.5 on the scale that was used. You think maybe it's an  oddball bow?

Everyone has told me thus far that the 55/75 shafts I'm using are too weak, I've tried going up to 300 spine shafts and those things wobbled like nobody's business.


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Offline SGTDuffman

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2015, 03:01:08 PM »
The convention for labeling bows I believe is 2 down and 3 up, so a bow marked 50# can actually be anything between 48 and 53# (I'm not sure why it wouldn't be 2# either way. At 3# up 53# could go to either 50# or 55#). The 56# at 28" sounds a bit off. You also gain 2-3lbs for every inch past 28" that you draw. So if your bow just happened to be on the higher side, like 52 or 53#, then you draw it 3.5" past 28", it's conceivable that you could get anything up to 63.5# of actual weight at your draw length. The other side would be it could be as low as 55# at your draw length, but since you've measured it, it seems more likely that it actually was towards the higher side and marked at 50#, with you getting the 3# per inch past 28". It could also be the scale, but it is possible that it could be a 50# bow pulling 63.5#.

As far as the shafts go, they would be weak for your weight and draw length. With a long drawn like that there isn't much manipulation of shaft lengths you can do because there just isn't room to take anything off a 32" shaft when your draw is 31.5". Your only real options for stiffening the shaft are to get a stiffer shaft, use lighter points, change the brace height, or foot the shaft. Since new shafts aren't necessarily economically feasible, and lowering the brace height isn't either, we're left with lighter points, or footing the shaft. If the point is to raise arrow weight for reducing sound and vibration, you're left with just the footers. They will both stiffen the shaft by adding a sleeve over it and reducing how much the shaft is able to flex, and add weight to the arrow. They also make the shafts tougher should you go shooting stumps or make a bad shot at the range into a support or something, you'll be less likely to send the insert back into the shaft and mushroom it out. I would also add a small piece of footing at the nock end, because that energy is gonna go somewhere if you stiffen the spine. Usually it will cause the nock end to crack.

You can try using something like this to figure out your spine and setup.

https://www.3riversarchery.com/SpineCalculator.asp?pass=2

They have your bow in there, just plug in your setup then start experimenting with the different shaft spines and lengths, different footer lengths and weights, and different point weights. What works with one shaft should work on all shafts, or be close enough that it makes no difference. For instance if you find that a 340 spined shaft with a 150gr point at 32" is perfectly spined for your bow (those numbers are just an example, I didn't actually plug them in), any 340 spined shaft should still be spined for your bow with that point weight and setup, but the overall weight of the arrow may change. So if it says that is a good setup for say Gold Tip Traditionals, it would also be a good set up for Beman 340 spined arrows, but one may be lighter or heavier based on the grains per inch of the specific model of arrow. But you should be able to transfer over any of the other features, like point weight, nock weight, footer length/weight, etc. If that helps you with being able to get cheaper shafts, then so be it. It's probably still cheaper just to add footers.

For footers, it's not a real complex operation.



Offline HillSlick

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2015, 06:13:17 PM »
Dude, you rock.Thank you.


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Offline clayton95

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Re: Silencer placement
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2015, 03:40:54 PM »
From all of the above posts you are pointed in the right direction. My biggest impact on noise has been arrow wieght. You are on the edge of being too light for your draw weight that you could cause damage to your bow.  The point where I see the most noise reduction is around 11 grains per pound of draw weight, that puts you at 693 total. There are lots of options to get where you need for arrow weight. Let me know if you want more advise on this.

The second piece of advice is that the spine calculator on 3rivers website does not work for me.  I have a long draw length too at 31", and have talked to a few people with longer draws that say it does not work for them either. I shoot MFX 340s out of my 66lb longbow, but that is with 250 grain point weight. I can shoot the MFX 400s with 125 grain points, but they are a lot more noisy because they are lighter.

I have also found that by using one silencer at the 1/3 point of the total string length from the bottom and the 1/4 point from the top gets a lot of the harmonic hum out of the string.

Final thought is that a 60" recurve may be on the short side for your long draw length and that may be causing some noise issues as you could be overstressing the limbs at full draw.

I hope some of this may help. -Clayton

 


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