Access permits and hunting seasons

[MADMAX]

I met a Weyco guy who was running a harvester up in the Winston years back who told me it was going to happen.
He said between the meth cookers, trash dumpers, vandals of the million dollar equipment Weyco was going to lock it down
Told me they just had a couple of the harvesters vandalized by idiots putting sand and dirt in the hydraulics.
I agree that it sucks though and tax breaks offered to the company should be revoked.

[JimmyHoffa]

The problem isn't charging access fees,it's the people buying them.Dont buy the passes,and the areas will be over run by wildlife, eating there trees.They will be forced to open areas to hunt,out of crop damage.The problem is everyone is focused on getting there kill,not the real problem.Also these timber company's have blocked and gated,state funded main line roads.Theres been about four of us that have been to our law makers,offices and the timber practice board.It will take a big effort to get this problem reversed by sportsman.This is more than archery or muzzle loaders, getting locked out.All user groups need to work together on this issue.i can also tell you the state is considering,giving management of our state lands, to the very timber company's that our locking you out.

harvest success rates are too low in the alternate areas to actually expect people not to get timber passes.  If USFS did a big log off and people were seeing forty deer a day again including bucks having three or more points, I would doubt that Weyco passes would be selling for $30 much less the $300. 

[westsidehntr]

Its surprising how many people just don't get it.  Free access is what has killed the free access program.  People acted and still act like they are entitled to trespass on private ground, and they damage forests and equipment.  I've heard the term "pay to play" thrown around here and that really is in no way applicable.  Weyco or any other timber company hasn't just decided to make Joe the Plumber pay.  What they have decided to do is make it harder for Joe the Plumber to get on their property and do damage. 

We aren't too many years away from entire tree farms being leased by a single lease holder, and all passes and sub leases coming from them.  Weyco will be out of the loop completely. 

There isn't a soul here who would criticize a farmer that charges for access to his flooded duck fields.  No one gripes about a private citizen charging a trespass fee to hunt his mountain.  The real problem is that everyone thinks Weyco has too much money, and they are greedy.  No more so than any other land owner.  I choose to allow a select few people to hunt my property during bow season, just because I don't hunt archery anymore.  If I choose to charge someone for the same access, screw anyone who has the audacity to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property.  Same rules should apply to any company or person.

I can't speak for others, but I believe most on this thread don't feel entitled to people's private property.  Most of us understand that Weyco isn't making a ton of money relative to their timber sales on this. The issue people have with this is the tax breaks for allowing public access. They should either get one or the other. Charge for access and no tax breaks, or free access to ALL the public and tax breaks.

[pianoman9701]

Its surprising how many people just don't get it.  Free access is what has killed the free access program.  People acted and still act like they are entitled to trespass on private ground, and they damage forests and equipment.  I've heard the term "pay to play" thrown around here and that really is in no way applicable.  Weyco or any other timber company hasn't just decided to make Joe the Plumber pay.  What they have decided to do is make it harder for Joe the Plumber to get on their property and do damage. 

We aren't too many years away from entire tree farms being leased by a single lease holder, and all passes and sub leases coming from them.  Weyco will be out of the loop completely. 

There isn't a soul here who would criticize a farmer that charges for access to his flooded duck fields.  No one gripes about a private citizen charging a trespass fee to hunt his mountain.  The real problem is that everyone thinks Weyco has too much money, and they are greedy.  No more so than any other land owner.  I choose to allow a select few people to hunt my property during bow season, just because I don't hunt archery anymore.  If I choose to charge someone for the same access, screw anyone who has the audacity to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property.  Same rules should apply to any company or person.

Yes it is surprising. Many people don't get why companies like WEYCO get deferred tax opportunities when there's little benefit to the public by giving it to them. They pay a fraction of the tax that you and I pay because when the tax law was written, it was assumed they'd continue let the public access their property for recreation. I don't think private land owners should be forced to allow public access. I also don't think they should get tax breaks when they make that decision. Their land should be taxed at a full rate when they close access or charge for access.

[Bob33]

Pubic recreation was one of the options.

[JimmyHoffa]

Pubic recreation was one of the options.

I don't know what you meant by that? But there is a thread on here from maybe a year ago with links to the timber tax codes and the list of options they need to meet so many of is crystal clear. May not be convenient for many of the arguments on here, but crystal clear never the less.

It's a spelling police thing.

[westsidehntr]

Its surprising how many people just don't get it.  Free access is what has killed the free access program.  People acted and still act like they are entitled to trespass on private ground, and they damage forests and equipment.  I've heard the term "pay to play" thrown around here and that really is in no way applicable.  Weyco or any other timber company hasn't just decided to make Joe the Plumber pay.  What they have decided to do is make it harder for Joe the Plumber to get on their property and do damage. 

We aren't too many years away from entire tree farms being leased by a single lease holder, and all passes and sub leases coming from them.  Weyco will be out of the loop completely. 

There isn't a soul here who would criticize a farmer that charges for access to his flooded duck fields.  No one gripes about a private citizen charging a trespass fee to hunt his mountain.  The real problem is that everyone thinks Weyco has too much money, and they are greedy.  No more so than any other land owner.  I choose to allow a select few people to hunt my property during bow season, just because I don't hunt archery anymore.  If I choose to charge someone for the same access, screw anyone who has the audacity to tell me what I can and can't do with my own property.  Same rules should apply to any company or person.

I can't speak for others, but I believe most on this thread don't feel entitled to people's private property.  Most of us understand that Weyco isn't making a ton of money relative to their timber sales on this. The issue people have with this is the tax breaks for allowing public access. They should either get one or the other. Charge for access and no tax breaks, or free access to ALL the public and tax breaks.

This has been covered in detail in past threads. Public access never was a requirement for their tax rate. When this tax structure was set up timber companies were given a reduced annual property tax rate and required to pay an additional tax when trees were harvested (Makes complete sense to me for this type of business). Part of the deal with this tax structure was the timber companies had to meet a certain number (I believe it was 2) of criteria out of several options. Pubic recreation was one of the options. As discussed here in the past these companies already meet enough of the criteria without allowing public access. And I find it a stretch to say they are getting a tax break at all. They are paying the rate structured for their type of land use and meeting the qualifications for this rate. There are commercial properties that pay a higher tax rate than I do on my home. Does this mean I'm getting a tax break? If you believe I am then I guess you can say timber companies are as well. Personally I wouldn't call it a tax break, I am paying the rate structured for the type of land use I have just as the timber companies are.

And for the record I have no personal interest or ties to any timberland. But I do believe strongly in private property rights. I truly wish these lands were left open to the general public. But I sure don't blame these companies for shutting them down with all the abuse that has occurred on them.

I fully support private property rights too, and I agree with your last statement.

And, if their tax structure says nothing about public access, I take back everything I said. But, I need some proof. I guess I never saw the other threads that detailed this.

[bbarnes]

Well I guess it's time to go to the law makers of the state,and have them taxed accordingly.I personally think destroying the roads with heavy equipment,hauling these logs then exporting them,only to take jobs from our county is even more wrong.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

All well and good. But my purpose of starting this thread wasn't to rehash the timberland tax. It was to make the point that if we are stuck with having to buy an access permit to hunt locally, we should be able to hunt with our chosen weapon in a season set for that weapon. The number of people who can hunt in those units is already controlled and limited by the timber companies. So letting some weapons have seasons and and not letting other weapons have seasons makes no sense.  It's not about too many animals being killed any more. Have more equal seasons for each weapon type and let the access permit holders decide which season they want to hunt.

[bbarnes]

My idea for elk is undevide the state for elk.It will gain them revenue and spread people out and give more opportunity.East side has more open land access.

[fireweed]

From what I hear Weyco will be year round permit required in 2016  for each tree farm--at basically double the price for St. Helens ($300).  So when my kid turns 18 next year our house has to spend $600 to simply go for a walk to the nearby creek.

How about instead of the state bending over backward to benefit the fee system (like they did in Margaret) we get the governor to stand up to them like the Montana governor did in a letter which basically threatens all their tax perks
http://governor.mt.gov/Portals/16/docs/2015PressReleases/20151119_Doyle_Simons_%20Weyerhaeuser_CEO.pdf?ver=2015-11-19-151958-630

weyco's VIP's aren't too happy about this letter.

My neighbor has a creek through his property as well. His property is posted and he doesn't allow access. If he wanted to charge for access to it that is his right. This is how private property works.

As far as that letter goes I would hardly call that standing up to weyco. And in no place did it threaten to change tax rates. It sounded a lot more like him pleading to weyco.

Of course the governor isn't going to specifically threaten to hit their tax breaks--it's a veiled threat.  There are a thousand ways the governor of a state can make a company's life miserable.  When the CEO gets a letter from the governor before the merger is even completed and basically says "your bad reputation precedes you, and we are watching you" .  When a governor tells a CEO that he is very concerned, and the fee program  "will not be well received in Montana" its a threat.  Just like Robert De Niro pointing to his eyes and warning his would-be sin-in-law "I'm watching you"  it's a threat.

[BOWHUNTER45]

The problem isn't charging access fees,it's the people buying them.Dont buy the passes,and the areas will be over run by wildlife, eating there trees.They will be forced to open areas to hunt,out of crop damage.The problem is everyone is focused on getting there kill,not the real problem.Also these timber company's have blocked and gated,state funded main line roads.Theres been about four of us that have been to our law makers,offices and the timber practice board.It will take a big effort to get this problem reversed by sportsman.This is more than archery or muzzle loaders, getting locked out.All user groups need to work together on this issue.i can also tell you the state is considering,giving management of our state lands, to the very timber company's that our locking you out.

You seriously nailed this one .. I totally agreed to what your saying until about September 2015 .. I preached I would never buy into this crap but I did .. I am not that happy about the price to access but I must tell you it was worth it .. Gates to save the game ..and from what I seen this year I sure wish they had more permits for spring bear up North .. I literally seen acres and acres of trees peeled from bears ..unfortunately no spring bear permits in this unit . I am writing to Weyerhaeuser about what I have seen and find out why there are not permits in this unit ..Anyway we ended up with 1 bear and 1 deer off that permit ..I guess I got my monies worth ...seen a lot more game than in usual areas I hunt freely !