209 Muzzy's In Washington

[Sabotloader]

I have a western disc extreme.  What all do I need to make it 209?  I assume you would be able to go through Knight?

You will need a bolt housing and breech plug.  Breech Plug has to be one for a DISC not the Mountaineer.  The bolt housing you get from Knight will have primer rails on the face of the bolt. You will slide the primer in those rails then close the bolt to insert the primer into the breech plug...

The top bolt shown in this picture is the old style bolt with a primer adapter installed.  Knight no longer sales this part.



This is the way it all use to go together - this is what is called the 'bare primer system'



This picture shows the new bolt setup. It shows the primer rails on the face of the bolt and pic with the primer in the rails.  This is the 'bare primer setup.



Knight also offers a FJP system with a a primer insterted in a red plastic jacket and the assembly is dropped in to the opening on the bolt.

[jackelope]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

[JimmyHoffa]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

[Sabotloader]

So if this goes through, we can have the muzzy’s that have the breech completely protected?  Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??

It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap.  The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps.  The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403

[trophyhunt]

So if this goes through, we can have the muzzy’s that have the breech completely protected?  Another question, are 209 primers that much better than a musket cap, and can my Thompson center xr.50 be converted to a 209??

It can be converted - but it would still have a dirty breech area and to honest I would stay with cap ignition in that rifle - BUT I would quickly switch away from a Musket Cap to a #11 Mag cap or better yet the RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+ cap.  The #11 Mag cap burns in the same heat range as does the Musket and way hotter than the new Re-Enactment Musket Caps.  The 1075+ German cap is even hotter than the CCI #11 Mag.

http://www.cainsoutdoor.com/shop/item.asp?item=03403

I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, thank you. 

[bobcat]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

[buglebrush]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. 

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

[jackelope]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. 

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.

[buglebrush]

I would like to see the law left alone.  It's supposed to be a primitive season.

Now getting changed into my flame retardant suit.

Do you muzzleload?

I have in the past. I own a converted/western whatever you call it Disc Extreme. Not sure why it matters. A muzzleloader is supposed to be a primitive weapon. If you want to hunt in a modern style with modern equipment, hunt the modern season with a modern rifle.

But other than a special permit or raffle tag, there's not really an option to hunt bulls in or tail end of rut with a modern rifle.  And for the westside not much of an option to hunt elk with a modern rifle when it isn't raining every (or nearly) day.  The guys have some arguments, but I think a few will have regrets later--more people and harvest.

You’ll pretty much be hunting with a modern rifle. That’s the breaks.

Yeah, which other than the upfront expense of buying a muzzy the question then is why hunt in modern?  With muzzy you'll get to hunt a week in early October and then three and a half weeks in late Nov-mid December.  Or a chance at rut animals and a chance at migrators.

It's still a single shot with open sights, which at least for me means I'm not shooting further than about 120 yards.

Huge huge difference between a Muzzy and Modern.  I can't take anyone seriously who says otherwise. 

In the rainforests I hunt I've had misfires cost me two bulls, and yes I do all the correct things to prevent that from happening.   It can and probably will still happen, but you have a more reasonable expectation of your gun firing which with how hard it is to get a shot opportunity, that is a very good thing.  I'm totally for this even though I'm predominantly an archery hunter. 

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.

My comment regarding the huge huge difference between a muzzy and modern had nothing to do with ignition.  My second paragraph is why I am for 209, but the vast difference between muzzy and Modern has very very little to do with that. 

I can consistently and comfortably hit a deer at 700+ yards with my modern, but wouldn't attempt much over 100 yards with my muzzy.  Enormous difference.  Now, you may hunt with an open sighted lever gun, but that's your choice.  You could also hunt modern season with a long-bow, but that's up to you.   I stand by my statement regarding Muzzy being vastly inferior to Modern. 

[Sabotloader]

jackelope

But you're hunting with old school caps that are exposed to the elements in inclement weather. This is apples and oranges when compared to sealed 209 ignition.

But what ML hunter in the northwest even leaves the caps exposed to the elements.  Not even the real old timers did that!  The rule says that the manufacturer can not provide a part on the rifle that covers your cap and ignitions elements - that does not mean that you can't protect the the breech and it is really so easy...

One way that I have used in the past is simply wrap the breech area





Another way is to choose the correct nipple fit... well you can do do this with a #11 cap not so much much with a Musket Cap



This a test I conducted to test my theory...



Another thougt to share - not all 209 ignition systems are water/weather proof - in fact many of them will leak...

Just changing the ignition system and yet complying with the other rules of the PacNorWest do not make the 209 inline anymore effective than any of my TC Renegades...

What I can do do with this rifle.... with a 209 ignition



I can also do with this rifle...

[SuperX]

seems like the only difference between a muzzle loader in WA and a Sharps .50 cal is an ounce of brass 

[steeleywhopper]

My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.

[Duckslayer89]

My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.

[hunter399]

My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.

I will admit I was not for 209 primers,i do hunt modern most years lately due to taking kids on first hunting trips past few years.The new remington muzzle loader 300 yards is not primitive weapon or short range at all,But remember in the next few years if harvest numbers go way high on muzzle loaders,you may feel the effects of modern technology as in,

Reduced seasons
Reduced permits
Less opportunities
And other regulations,and seasons to control harvest numbers .

[JimmyHoffa]

My bighorn with musket caps and peep sight is a 200 yard gun when I do my part, I’m sure using a 209 is not going to turn it into a 300 yard gun. You still gotta keep your powder dry and you still gotta use open sights whether or not caps or 209 is used. I’m all for another ignition option personally.

Funny all these guys who don’t muzzleload trying to claim it’s like Hunting with a modern firearm. No way to get the ballistics from a muzzy like a modern gun.

I do muzzy with .54 sidelock great plains rifle.  Take a look at that Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader.  It has 2400 fps muzzle velocity with a 250 gr bullet, that's close to .35 Whelen.  The muzzleloader doesn't have the BC to keep up with the Whelen.  It starts off better than a lot of other popular rifles.