Remington bankruptcy today

[kselkhunter]

Hopefully Remington comes out of it a healthier company. 
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/02/robert-farago/breaking-remington-filing-bankruptcy/

Actually, many of the major firearms companies have had significantly reduced sales the past year or so.

Part of why I prefer to buy new firearms over used when possible.  Would like them all to continue to prosper so we continue to have options.

[Bob33]

Sad, and ironic that a Trump election victory probably pushed their over the edge.

[kselkhunter]

Yeah, most other websites made the political angle a huge part of the reason for drop in gun sales.  I chose to find a website link that didn't include politics in the explanation.  I'm tired of politics.

The interesting part of the arrangement is the private equity firm that held Remington completely loses it to the creditors (mostly JP Morgan & Franklin Templeton).  Debt converted to equity.  So we now wait and see what JP Morgan/etc. does with the company.

[Magnum_Willys]

Maybe Lapua will pick up the pieces and Barnes will then be owned by same company that now owns Berger. 

[Biggerhammer]

It's all in life decisions. Your the common sum of who you associate yourself with. Some can't do simple math. In private life or in business. I have always been a big Remington person. As of lately, I'm a big Remington "Action only" fan.

[follow maggie]

They’re bankrupt mostly because when Cerberus bought them about 10 years ago, they sucked all of the cash out of the company and then saddled it with billions of dollars of debt. Much like Daimler did to Chrysler.

[bearpaw]

Different story yet still reminds me of the Smith and Wesson story, hopefully Remington also ends up a better company again. 

[CP]

It was inevitable, they have been putting out garbage for several years now.  Bad management making poor business decisions and alienating their customers.   

[Gringo31]

Interesting the different spins you hear out there.

This from NBC..

MADISON, N.C. — Remington, the gun maker beset by falling sales and lawsuits tied to the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, has reached a financing deal that would allow it to continue operating as it seeks Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

The maker of the Bushmaster AR-15-style rifle used in the Connecticut shooting that left 20 first-graders and six educators dead in 2012, said Monday that the agreement with lenders will reduce its debt by about $700 million and add about $145 million in new capital.

The company was cleared of any wrongdoing in the shooting, but investors repulsed by the massacres distanced themselves from the company's owner, investment firm Cerberus Capital Management. Cerberus acquired the gun maker in 2007, just when gun sales began to skyrocket.

Firearm background checks, a reliable barometer of gun sales, had risen steadily for at least a decade.

[mountainman]

It was inevitable, they have been putting out garbage for several years now.  Bad management making poor business decisions and alienating their customers.   

Couple with recall rollouts every couple years combined with strong competition in the market. Diversifying many direction..recipe for trouble..

[dwils233]

They’re bankrupt mostly because when Cerberus bought them about 10 years ago, they sucked all of the cash out of the company and then saddled it with billions of dollars of debt. Much like Daimler did to Chrysler.

This is why. Sub-par products and a decline in demand, competition, recalls don't help but at the end of the day it was huge debt that they couldn't recover from. My mafia analogy is that the debt was the cement shoes, the rest is just water.

[eastsidemallard74]

Interesting how there is no recovery money for them like the auto manufacturers!!!!!!!!!! But I guess that's because they sell guns, not cars. There was a rumor in Moses that they were going to be building a plant here to build guns. Maybe this is why that rumor died off.

[JimmyHoffa]

It was inevitable, they have been putting out garbage for several years now.  Bad management making poor business decisions and alienating their customers.

Probably part of it.  I know that the Remington stuff from the 70's and 80's was still pretty good.  Then around the early 90's started putting more plastic and fit/finish not as high.  Just kept getting worse.  Last new one I looked at you could see the seem lines in the plastic from the mold and hear clicking noises when you moved it around.

[Knocker of rocks]

They’re bankrupt mostly because when Cerberus bought them about 10 years ago, they sucked all of the cash out of the company and then saddled it with billions of dollars of debt.

I would say the companies failures have more to do with take-overs, debt saddleing, greenmail protection, movement of manufacturing locations, products and a drop in sales following what I would call panic buying during the Obama administration.

[kselkhunter]

Remington's significant revenue reduction eliminated their ability to service their large debt load.  Hopefully the restructure gets them healthy.  But the industry in general is having a down stretch. Smith & Wesson sales are down 36% the past year, Ruger's down 25%. 

[bullfisher]

Nobody wants to spend $700 for a rifle that needs rebuilt just to shoot straight. And instead of addressing their issues, they just kept pumping garbage into the market for another decade.. They baisically invented the need for the blueprinting industry..   

[NRA4LIFE]

Good riddance if they went away.  My dad always swore by their rifles and they were nothing but trash.  He always, every year it seemed had problems with them.  I do not own a single Remington firearm.  Pure garbage in my opinion.

[Special T]

They’re bankrupt mostly because when Cerberus bought them about 10 years ago, they sucked all of the cash out of the company and then saddled it with billions of dollars of debt.

I would say the companies failures have more to do with take-overs, debt saddleing, greenmail protection, movement of manufacturing locations, products and a drop in sales following what I would call panic buying during the Obama administration.

KoR I think those are the big reasons. Older businesses are not as flexible to the changes in the market.

What do you think was thier most innovative product that has hit the market?
None jump out at me. And I can think of several other of thier competitors that did especially when you take into account that the awesome gun sales couldn't last forever...

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[724wd]

What do you think was thier most innovative product that has hit the market?
None jump out at me. And I can think of several other of thier competitors that did especially when you take into account that the awesome gun sales couldn't last forever...

wasn't their R51 supposed to the cats meow? what a godawful ugly unit that was!!!

[Special T]

A horrible flop.
My favorite innovation when sales were awesome for gun manufactures... The 17 HSM. They were selling all the guns and ammo the could... so Winchester bought a cement nail gun blank plant &started making cartridges!

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[Knocker of rocks]

KoR I think those are the big reasons. Older businesses are not as flexible to the changes in the market.

What do you think was thier most innovative product that has hit the market?

I actually can't speak about Remmington.  Bushmasters are a cool frame, with plenty of similar competition.   Classic Marlins are what I like, so people like me aren't really looking for innovation, what we want is quality and availability.  Marlin has not been able to do either, and their product line is in a major contraction.  They've dumped the .444 and the .450 in the last 3/4 of a decade, and only now have made 1894 pistol caliber guns easily available.

It will be interesting in what the lever gun builders like Wild West do if Marlins again become hard to get, I think that Marlin 1895 and 1894's were there platform of choice.  Win lever guns seem really crappy, that lever grip safety just comes off as poor workmanship at first blush.

[Jonathan_S]

I've got a garbage Rem 700 bought new in 2016.  Shoots 1/2 minute and better with a JB Weld bed job. 

I agree it would be nice if they'd put a bit more into the stock and trigger but I could gripe about fit, finish, trigger etc on almost every factory offering.

[Stein]

I shoot a 700 purchased about seven or eight years ago, great rifle once I dumped the trigger and stock.  Anyway, the bankruptcy had nothing to do with firearms or sales, the company was looted.  Buy a good company, drain the cash, load it up with debt and then push it over a cliff.

[BULLBLASTER]

I've got a garbage Rem 700 bought new in 2016.  Shoots 1/2 minute and better with a JB Weld bed job. 

I agree it would be nice if they'd put a bit more into the stock and trigger but I could gripe about fit, finish, trigger etc on almost every factory offering.

I am not of the camp that says they are all garbage. I bought a cheap adl from Walmart in 2016 and with handloaded it is a 1/2-3/4 moa shooter. Even in the cheap plastic stock that came with it. I did put it into a magpul stock and am currently selling it but not at all because I am not happy with the gun.

I will say that I think Remington has been left in the dust on new innovations in the industry. Their actions haven’t changed for ever. They are good but they have been stagnant while competition has been improving lots lately. 

[The scout]

Its been a long time since I have heard of anyone shooting well with a factory Remington rifle that had to do some work to it, bed job trigger...  something to get it shooting sub moa. hopefully they can get it together and start putting out a quality product once again

[Zardoz]

I shoot a 700 purchased about seven or eight years ago, great rifle once I dumped the trigger and stock.  Anyway, the bankruptcy had nothing to do with firearms or sales, the company was looted.  Buy a good company, drain the cash, load it up with debt and then push it over a cliff.

   Funny, the name Romney comes to mind.   

[CAMPMEAT]

KoR I think those are the big reasons. Older businesses are not as flexible to the changes in the market.

What do you think was thier most innovative product that has hit the market?

I actually can't speak about Remmington.  Bushmasters are a cool frame, with plenty of similar competition.   Classic Marlins are what I like, so people like me aren't really looking for innovation, what we want is quality and availability.  Marlin has not been able to do either, and their product line is in a major contraction.  They've dumped the .444 and the .450 in the last 3/4 of a decade, and only now have made 1894 pistol caliber guns easily available.

It will be interesting in what the lever gun builders like Wild West do if Marlins again become hard to get, I think that Marlin 1895 and 1894's were there platform of choice.  Win lever guns seem really crappy, that lever grip safety just comes off as poor workmanship at first blush.

I've a JM stamped 450 Marlin in 99% condition with a Leupold scope for $1000 plus shipping for you.

[W_Ellison2011]

Its been a long time since I have heard of anyone shooting well with a factory Remington rifle that had to do some work to it, bed job trigger...  something to get it shooting sub moa. hopefully they can get it together and start putting out a quality product once again

That sums up some of their issues perfectly. At least I can go buy a savage and work up a load and shoot sub moa pretty readily... I can't say the same about Remington rifles over the past few years. My buddy had a 700 in .308. It shot moa but never spectacular until he replaced the stock, trigger, and bedded it. It shot 1/4-1/2 moa after that. I hope they come back stronger and actually give their consumers a worthy firearm... that way maybe they can change my mind about them. For now though.. its savage and weatherby for me.

[Biggerhammer]

Pretty much any rifle will shoot with handloads. Some need to toss a couple more coins in the dish when it's passed around if their dependent on factory fodder.

[mountainman]

Its been a long time since I have heard of anyone shooting well with a factory Remington rifle that had to do some work to it, bed job trigger...  something to get it shooting sub moa. hopefully they can get it together and start putting out a quality product once again

That sums up some of their issues perfectly. At least I can go buy a savage and work up a load and shoot sub moa pretty readily... I can't say the same about Remington rifles over the past few years. My buddy had a 700 in .308. It shot moa but never spectacular until he replaced the stock, trigger, and bedded it. It shot 1/4-1/2 moa after that. I hope they come back stronger and actually give their consumers a worthy firearm... that way maybe they can change my mind about them. For now though.. its savage and weatherby for me.

Have to agree. No longer, and for several years, has Remington bee the name for out-of-the-box accuracy. Savage owns that, followed by Tikka imho.
Kinda like Vortex to Leupold😉

[bobcat]

I wonder if the trigger issues had anything to do with the bankruptcy? Seems like they had to have spent a lot of money with all the lawsuits and trigger recalls/replacements.

[Knocker of rocks]

I wonder if the trigger issues had anything to do with the bankruptcy? Seems like they had to have spent a lot of money with all the lawsuits and trigger recalls/replacements.

Maybe, but the settlement will never go away.  Even if they close up shop and sell everything at the flea market, DuPont is on the hook for a portion of the settlement.

[Alchase]

I wonder if the trigger issues had anything to do with the bankruptcy? Seems like they had to have spent a lot of money with all the lawsuits and trigger recalls/replacements.

If they had not "denied" it for years upon years while everyone knew their triggers were crap it might have helped.
Add all the other Quality Assurance issues and they cut their own throat.
Many companies with high debt can still be successful, but only if their products are worth buying.
Remington quality turned my away over 10 years ago.
I have seen nothing since then that has turned me back, and if truth be told they have gotten worse.

[Bob33]

I wonder if the trigger issues had anything to do with the bankruptcy? Seems like they had to have spent a lot of money with all the lawsuits and trigger recalls/replacements.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/remington-attorney-wont-say-if-bankruptcy-puts-rifle-settlement-at-risk.html#ampshare=https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/14/remington-attorney-wont-say-if-bankruptcy-puts-rifle-settlement-at-risk.html

"A final ruling on the settlement could take months. If it is upheld, owners would have 18 months to submit their guns for repairs. That is unless Remington's bankruptcy disrupts the process. Because Wednesday's hearing only concerned the settlement, and the bankruptcy petition has not yet been filed, none of the parties addressed

[ctwiggs1]

Just read another article on this today.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/25/gun-maker-remington-files-for-bankruptcy.html

Their explanations make no sense.  No manufacturer "ramps up" production without open orders to support it.  They had a crap-ton of debt in 2007, they never did any debt reduction when the markets were good, and now there is another slowdown.

It's basic economics people - excess debt leads to excess problems.    This is a problem that goes back to mismanagement long before Sandy Hook or the Trump victory.  If your company is purchased in 2007 for 118 million, but you have 250 million in debt, you're already in a bad position.

[Magnum_Willys]

Creditors will own it, with no debt or past baggage will be sold to Norma and creditors recoup much of their loan dollars.

[Stein]

Just read another article on this today.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/25/gun-maker-remington-files-for-bankruptcy.html

Their explanations make no sense.  No manufacturer "ramps up" production without open orders to support it.  They had a crap-ton of debt in 2007, they never did any debt reduction when the markets were good, and now there is another slowdown.

It's basic economics people - excess debt leads to excess problems.    This is a problem that goes back to mismanagement long before Sandy Hook or the Trump victory.  If your company is purchased in 2007 for 118 million, but you have 250 million in debt, you're already in a bad position.

You are assuming the prior owners wanted to run it well and keep it going.  It could have been yet another example of corporate looting.  Either way, I agree the number of guns sold and who is president had nothing to do with the outcome.

[pianoman9701]

Sad, and ironic that a Trump election victory probably pushed their over the edge.

I bet it was more the trigger recall problem mixed with everything else. They spent tens of Millions on that.

[ctwiggs1]

Sad, and ironic that a Trump election victory probably pushed their over the edge.

I bet it was more the trigger recall problem mixed with everything else. They spent tens of Millions on that.

I doubt it.  Their annual revenue is just sub $1B.  The trigger problem was indeed a problem, but if a recall costs less than 2% of your annual revenue and THAT is what pushes you over the edge, it's back to mismanagement.

I think they got greedy and grew broke.

Curtis