Accused bear poacher breaks silence, points finger at WDFW

[Blacktail Sniper]

The answers are in the article.  They historically were giving depredation permits based on last years damage.  They stopped doing that this year, and are only issuing permits on an as-needed basis.  My guess would be that permits decline significantly this year.

 

I honestly doubt that sportsman's use of hounds and bait will ever be gotten back, too hot of a political potato!

What I could see as a possibilty (remote maybe, but not necessarily out of reach), is a push for a statewide, OTC spring bear season.   

With the spotlight being shined on the depredation process, the possibility of some expensive lawsuits to fight, now may the best opportunity to get spring hunts statewide and over the counter.

They can't just wave off a referendum or initiative by restoring hounds and/or bait. Unless a referendum or initiative is passed rescinding the 1996 initiative, their hands are tied, even if they wanted to bring it back. I doubt they do, however.

Correct, but I doubt there will ever realistically be an initiative putting it back into place garner enough support to make the ballot, let alone pass, and anytime after two years I believe (which could possibly still be done?), the legislature could have then rescinded it. 

They didn't back then and they haven't in the interviening 20 years, hence, why I defined it as "too hot a political potato."

Hounds and baiting for the average sportsman are long gone, sad to say, but I think that is the reality.

As for bears (or cougar) showing up in places they shouldn't, the current law addresses that with allowing removal by hounds in the interest of public safety. 

Not a loophole, but a legal exception written into the original initiative and approved by voters.  Nothing currently has to change to address those issues.

That is why I think the best approach and possibly now being the best time to push for an over the counter, statewide spring season. 

Lots of applicats don't get drawn for spring tags now, so there is clearly a demand. 

People who buy a bear tag, but might not want to "invest" in the spring permit/points race, might instead be willing to  invest a few extra days or even a lot of time out in the spring chasing a bear now that they don't have to draw a permit or be limited to a specific permit area. 

It would likely be way more hunters out than the limited number of current permit hunters.

[DOUBLELUNG]

I don't see his tactics gaining any traction. That's like me saying it was ok to spotlight and shoot an elk out of season at night, because a depredation permittee might be allowed to use those same methods.  Poaching and management are apples and oranges.

[Blacktail Sniper]

I don't see his tactics gaining any traction. That's like me saying it was ok to spotlight and shoot an elk out of season at night, because a depredation permittee might be allowed to use those same methods.  Poaching and management are apples and oranges.

 

But then again, pointing fingers at WDFW has worked in the past...

Anything to cause doubt!

[Alan K]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

[hunter399]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.

[Buckmania]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.
[/




That’s because you are ignorant and don’t know what you are talking about

[hunter399]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.
[/




That’s because you are ignorant and don’t know what you are talking about

And wdfw is supposed to document public property damage of bears and make public record of this the same as cougar also supposed to make attempts to relocate bears before hound permits are given.

[Alan K]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.

Putting out feed for bears is no different than joe blow putting out a pile of apples for trail camera pictures or someone putting out a bale of alfalfa for wintering deer or elk. It is not done for the purposes of hunting over. Just for good measure though, there is a very clear exemption written in.

And I-655 reads private property, not personal property, which I'm assuming you had taken as an individual person's property. Private property is protected, whether owned by an individual or company.

Definition of loophole
1 a : a small opening through which small arms may be fired
b : a similar opening to admit light and air or to permit observation
2 : a means of escape; especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded

It is not a loophole when it is very clearly written out as an exemption in the initiative itself.  Alison Morrow doesn't apparently know the definition either.

[pd]

They can't just wave off a referendum or initiative by restoring hounds and/or bait. Unless a referendum or initiative is passed rescinding the 1996 initiative, their hands are tied, even if they wanted to bring it back. I doubt they do, however.

Hi P Man.  You are mistaken. 

After an initiative has passed (simple majority of the votes cast by the public), the Legislature can change or revoke the initiative with a 2/3rds majority vote (within a 2 year window).  After 2 years have elapsed, the Legislature can change or revoke any initiative with a simple majority vote.  https://ballotpedia.org/Laws_governing_the_initiative_process_in_Washington

The Legislature could have changed this any number of years ago.

[Buckmania]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.
[/




That’s because you are ignorant and don’t know what you are talking about

And wdfw is supposed to document public property damage of bears and make public record of this the same as cougar also supposed to make attempts to relocate bears before hound permits are given.

Thanks for proving my point that you don’t know what you are talking about. Hint-“public property”.
L

[hunter399]

The depredation hunts for bears with hounds is not a "loophole" and is a legal and effective means of addressing the problem the state is forced to address.  The State/WDFW HATE this program and would kick it to the curb tomorrow if they legally could.  It is not a revenue generator, it's highly scrutinized (obviously), extremely arduous to administer given the continue piling on of regulations/rules/restrictions/paperwork to appease the opposition (both internal and external), and is ridiculously over-hyped.  The houndsmen bear (no pun intended) a tremendous burden as well with the rules governing this program, and they continue to get more and more stringent each year. The ONLY thing the houndsmen get out of it, is the joy of listening to the music their hounds make.  The timber companies use the houndsmen, the state hates the houndsmen, hunters who don't have or understand hounds hate the houndsmen, houndsmen who aren't a part of this program hate the houndsmen who are, etc. etc. etc.

Nailed it!

Not really
I was reading the laws for baiting and hounds,from the way I read it timber company's are allowed to have feeding stations to feed bears that peel trees .
Wdfw can use and give hound permits to property owners for all the same reason as cougar hound permits which is ,public safety,livestock attacks,pet attack,or person property damage.
Now the loop hole is they have timber company's feeding station to curve peeling bear.
And the personal property damage part of the law was meant for property owners not company property.
This loophole if you will has made it legal to give timber company hound permits.
[/




That’s because you are ignorant and don’t know what you are talking about

And wdfw is supposed to document public property damage of bears and make public record of this the same as cougar also supposed to make attempts to relocate bears before hound permits are given.

Thanks for proving my point that you don’t know what you are talking about. Hint-“public property”.
L

Ya I was wrong they only have to report cougar damages,but don't be surprised to see changes bear hound hunting program that will be similar to cougar report of damages and removal cause wdfw seemed to abuse hound hunting permits for bears.

[Tbar]

Hunter 399 how did they abuse hound permits?

[hunter399]

Hunter 399 how did they abuse hound permits?

Here ya go to get back on topic,here is a quote from the artical.

Hundreds of documents requested through public records reveal a different story from WDFW, who permits timber farms to contract with hunters to remove bears that peel trees for food. When they peel the trees, they peel away profits. But in hundreds of documents obtained by KING 5, it's clear the state's own staff thinks the hunting program is being abused against the spirit of the law. Hound hunters working for timber farms aren't targeting bears that damage trees. They're killing any bear that's nearby.

I will lay out a quick example.
Cop on his cell phone
Pulls u over ,tickets you for being on your phone
Do you think that's right?

[Blacktail Sniper]

Hunter 399 how did they abuse hound permits?

Here ya go to get back on topic,here is a quote from the artical.

Hundreds of documents requested through public records reveal a different story from WDFW, who permits timber farms to contract with hunters to remove bears that peel trees for food. When they peel the trees, they peel away profits. But in hundreds of documents obtained by KING 5, it's clear the state's own staff thinks the hunting program is being abused against the spirit of the law. Hound hunters working for timber farms aren't targeting bears that damage trees. They're killing any bear that's nearby.

I will lay out a quick example.
Cop on his cell phone
Pulls u over ,tickets you for being on your phone
Do you think that's right?

Not a good example, as the law allows a law enforcement officer to use a cell phone, see 1(d):

https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.672

[Alan K]

Here ya go to get back on topic,here is a quote from the artical.

Hundreds of documents requested through public records reveal a different story from WDFW, who permits timber farms to contract with hunters to remove bears that peel trees for food. When they peel the trees, they peel away profits. But in hundreds of documents obtained by KING 5, it's clear the state's own staff thinks the hunting program is being abused against the spirit of the law. Hound hunters working for timber farms aren't targeting bears that damage trees. They're killing any bear that's nearby.

Is it really a suprise to you that WDFW might have at least one person in their ranks that doesn't like hound hunting and would claim it abuses the spirit of the law (which could in their mind be NO use of hounds, period)?

And the second flaw in the portion of that article you cite... On a depredation hound hunt, hounds must strike within a 1 mile radius of the damage center. Hunters go and start at the damage point, and work out from there until they hit the 1 mile radius. Without visually observing a bear peeling a tree and taking it right then, of course there is no way of being 100% sure it's THE bear. That shouldn't be misconstrued as the houndsmen not targeting the damaging bear though, it's the best they can do. "Any bear that's nearby" is within that 1 mile radius. Morrow of course paints it as though these houndsmen are out roaming the hills hunting.

I will lay out a quick example.
Cop on his cell phone
Pulls u over ,tickets you for being on your phone
Do you think that's right?

On you cop/cell phone example... Anyone can apply and go through the training that an officer must in order to become  a cop and use his cell phone while driving. Just the same as any houndsman can call up a timber company and WDFW and work to develop a trust level of being both ethical and effective to participate on these depredation permits.

Of course not just any joe houndsman is going to be utilized on these without being vetted. Just the same as any joe driver cannot talk on their cell phone without the same training an officer gets.

I guess to formally answer your question then... Yes, it is right.