2018 seems very lean

[Karl Blanchard]

I believe you missed my point. 

your point was noted but I do not agree. I never accept the argument that people make that just because an individual targets  mature animals that that said person doesn't care about the hunt or the traditions that's around it.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'd go as far and saying that those who would like to sell for strict and not continue to deplete a dwindling  resource CareMore about to tradition and the hunt as we want to see it continue for years to come. I want to see my children and my grandchildren hunt far more than I want to pull triggers myself.   

[NOCK NOCK]

Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm

I'm lost on the irony there?  Perhaps a lot of the guys who have killed a lot of big bucks know more than the average Joe and have noticed sharp declined in deer populations all over NCW and decided to hang up their weapons for a few years.  I'm not telling others to follow my path, but looking for ways to increase herd health.  There is no doubt in my mind that myself and several others could continue to kill mature bucks here if we chose to, but we don't. Unfortunately things change for the worse a lot more these days, so if having limited draw seasons is what it's going to take to be able to rebuild this herd, then I'm all for it.  It affects me just like it affects you.

Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?

Absolutely.  That's why myself and friends have devoted a lot of our free time these days in helping the next generation of youth harvest their first animals.



Be careful who you selectively single out here, as I don't think they're your real threat.

Not singling out anyone, heck I have killed a buck in WA every year but 1 for the last 37 years, so I am well aware of the fact that I have a part in the decline of the herds too.

I too have seen the reduction in deer numbers, but I am not so fond of the "lets have draw hunting to save the deer herds" mentality either.
As its been covered on here many times, Deer herd health is affected by a plethora of things, predation(human and animal), vehicle strikes, weather, fires, habitat loss, poaching, tribal overharvest, genetics, too much pressure, disease, etc. There are way to many things that can be done to help the deer rebound before we all start calling for reduced opportunity.

1. More deer are killed by vehicles every year than taken by hunters....(Build more hwy fencing, and drive safer)
2. Predators kill more ungulates than hunters every year.....(more folks need to actively hunt predators)
3. Muti-season permits put too much pressure on ungulates......(do away with this and return to one weapon tags)
4. Fires kill lots of deer both direct and indirect.....(Let it burn policy makes me wanna puke.)
5. Poaching.....(Hire more WDFW LEO's and have them be F&W wardens, not general LEO)
6. Tribal Overharvest......(No clue on how to fix this, but it's needed)

Just because someone has killed alot of big bucks, does not mean they know more about deer than the average Joe. (ie: young, strong and healthy do not equate to knowledge) Willing to bet there are quite a few folks that know mule deer very well.....but have not killed alot of big ones, Thats OK, its about enjoying your time in nature....however you wish to.....not up to another persons standards. 

Someone mentioned an odd or even system. A couple scenarios to think about; Father and child, hunting buddy and you, someones traditional camp....all could be broken up to hunt different years. Not a good way to promote our passion and bring new folks in to it.
Same scenarios would apply to a draw only system.

Deer numbers have, and always will fluctuate. That is something that we as humans can only pretend that we know what is best for them IMHO.




 

[Mtnwalker]

a lot of irony in this thread. Folks want more/ better deer......for what?, so we can go shoot them.
Not happy with deer numbers in WA so I’ll go hunt another state.
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
If y’all continue to yearly take out the best breeders it’s not hard to see that is also part of the problem.

Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?

It should be about family and friends enjoying the outdoors.......don’t need to kill a buck every year to do that.

Modify message

 

I don't think many guys on either of these threads are expecting to or even saying that they want to kill a buck every single year. And if you say "don't need to kill a buck every year" then why argue with the guys who want a more quality experience and are willing to possibly hunt less frequently in order to achieve that? Like Karl said I think the guys who care most about the condition of the herds are the guys who are willing to sacrifice and not shoot a buck every single year. Me personally, I have eaten my last 6 years worth of multi season tags in search of a buck that does something for me. Does that make me a trophy hunter? Sure I guess, but definitely not a guy who expects to "kill a trophy buck every year"

[NOCK NOCK]

I believe you missed my point. 

your point was noted but I do not agree. I never accept the argument that people make that just because an individual targets  mature animals that that said person doesn't care about the hunt or the traditions that's around it.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'd go as far and saying that those who would like to sell for strict and not continue to deplete a dwindling  resource CareMore about to tradition and the hunt as we want to see it continue for years to come. I want to see my children and my grandchildren hunt far more than I want to pull triggers myself.   

I Never said folks dont care.

Could that be because you HAVE been very successful at deer hunting?  Would you have the same feelings if you loved hunting, but were only successful every so often?

[NOCK NOCK]

a lot of irony in this thread. Folks want more/ better deer......for what?, so we can go shoot them.
Not happy with deer numbers in WA so I’ll go hunt another state.
Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm
If y’all continue to yearly take out the best breeders it’s not hard to see that is also part of the problem.

Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?

It should be about family and friends enjoying the outdoors.......don’t need to kill a buck every year to do that.

Modify message

 

I don't think many guys on either of these threads are expecting to or even saying that they want to kill a buck every single year. And if you say "don't need to kill a buck every year" then why argue with the guys who want a more quality experience and are willing to possibly hunt less frequently in order to achieve that? Like Karl said I think the guys who care most about the condition of the herds are the guys who are willing to sacrifice and not shoot a buck every single year. Me personally, I have eaten my last 6 years worth of multi season tags in search of a buck that does something for me. Does that make me a trophy hunter? Sure I guess, but definitely not a guy who expects to "kill a trophy buck every year"

Not trying to argue, Just that there are lots more folks out there who have not been as successful......and enjoy being able to hunt every year whether they kill a adeer or not.

Everyone wants a more quality experience.

[Mtnwalker]

Also, a lot of coyotes are seen, but not shot.  That's not helping a thing.  If I see a coyote, I'm shooting the  out of it and all of it's fur covered buddies.

It's interesting that there's research to suggest that shooting coyotes actually spreads them out and increases their numbers. I still took a shot at one last weekend, but I feel a little more conflicted about it lately.

There are many days out in Eastern WA where I end up seeing more coyotes than deer. I'd like to see their numbers drop. I still try to shoot them, but I wish there was more research looking into the impacts of this.

It's sure working in Utah right now. Something like a 25% increase in deer in the last 4 years since they started their bounty

[Karl Blanchard]

I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on.  Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.   

Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.

[Karl Blanchard]

I have often thought that a bounty system for predators in the state would be a cool thing. I just don't quite know how we would go about implementing it.

[NOCK NOCK]

 

[Mtnwalker]

I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on.  Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.   

Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.

[Karl Blanchard]

Oregon is unlimited archery I believe but honestly have never so much as sniffed Oregon really.  All the states I play in have some sort of a quota or draw system

[Karl Blanchard]

@NOCK NOCK in regards to your question on whether or not I would be as for restricting hunting if I was not successful I'm feeling tags my honest answer is I do not know. I invest far more time into trying to understand mule deer thena lot of folks and all that time investment is probably why I feel so strongly about this. Perhaps if I hadn't made it such an important thing in my life maybe I would feel differently.  I just know that if in some hypothetical world were at the snap of a finger I can never hunt again I would still be out there watching mule deer.

[Karl Blanchard]

One last thing while I'm on a roll here

I would never make the assumption that being young and ambitious makes a guy more knowledgable than a guy with double the seasons under his belt but I'd also counter that just because a guy has more seasons under his belt doesnt make him more knowledgeable than a younger guy who has fully dedicated his world to learning his prey.  Basically years mean nothing....its the quality of years and knowledge gained that matter

[Stein]

I think we are mostly on the same page my friend and even though I heartily disagree with you about fire suppression your points are all spot on.  Even with all of those plans in place I would still want a permit system.   

Another thing I don't get is the thought that somehow these established camps that have been hunting for Generations would just stop because only half the guys in Camp had tags. I know that if my old man had a deer tag and I didn't I would still be going because I love the hunt. Many other states successfully run draw only systems. I would love to have over-the-counter hunting everywhere but it's just not reality. We've had over the counter hunting since I've been alive and it's not working. We have to actively start attacking these different aspects of management if we want our grandchildren to hunt mule deer in Washington.

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't we pretty much the only mule deer state with untlimited tags? Off the top of my head it seems like every other state has some sort of quota, cap, or controlled draw in place.

Montana.  They manage for opportunity vs trophy potential in general.  You can hunt mule deer in the rut with a rifle every year if you are a resident and just about every year as a non-resident.

[bigmacc]

Another irony is seems that a lot of folks that have killed a lot of big bucks are the ones who are most adamant about saving the herds and calling for reduced opportunity.....hmmmm

I'm lost on the irony there?  Perhaps a lot of the guys who have killed a lot of big bucks know more than the average Joe and have noticed sharp declined in deer populations all over NCW and decided to hang up their weapons for a few years.  I'm not telling others to follow my path, but looking for ways to increase herd health.  There is no doubt in my mind that myself and several others could continue to kill mature bucks here if we chose to, but we don't. Unfortunately things change for the worse a lot more these days, so if having limited draw seasons is what it's going to take to be able to rebuild this herd, then I'm all for it.  It affects me just like it affects you.

Have y’all forgot that hunting is more than killing a trophy buck every year?

Absolutely.  That's why myself and friends have devoted a lot of our free time these days in helping the next generation of youth harvest their first animals.



Be careful who you selectively single out here, as I don't think they're your real threat.

Not singling out anyone, heck I have killed a buck in WA every year but 1 for the last 37 years, so I am well aware of the fact that I have a part in the decline of the herds too.

I too have seen the reduction in deer numbers, but I am not so fond of the "lets have draw hunting to save the deer herds" mentality either.
As its been covered on here many times, Deer herd health is affected by a plethora of things, predation(human and animal), vehicle strikes, weather, fires, habitat loss, poaching, tribal overharvest, genetics, too much pressure, disease, etc. There are way to many things that can be done to help the deer rebound before we all start calling for reduced opportunity.

1. More deer are killed by vehicles every year than taken by hunters....(Build more hwy fencing, and drive safer)
2. Predators kill more ungulates than hunters every year.....(more folks need to actively hunt predators)
3. Muti-season permits put too much pressure on ungulates......(do away with this and return to one weapon tags)
4. Fires kill lots of deer both direct and indirect.....(Let it burn policy makes me wanna puke.)
5. Poaching.....(Hire more WDFW LEO's and have them be F&W wardens, not general LEO)
6. Tribal Overharvest......(No clue on how to fix this, but it's needed)

Just because someone has killed alot of big bucks, does not mean they know more about deer than the average Joe. (ie: young, strong and healthy do not equate to knowledge) Willing to bet there are quite a few folks that know mule deer very well.....but have not killed alot of big ones, Thats OK, its about enjoying your time in nature....however you wish to.....not up to another persons standards. 

Someone mentioned an odd or even system. A couple scenarios to think about; Father and child, hunting buddy and you, someones traditional camp....all could be broken up to hunt different years. Not a good way to promote our passion and bring new folks in to it.
Same scenarios would apply to a draw only system.

Deer numbers have, and always will fluctuate. That is something that we as humans can only pretend that we know what is best for them IMHO.




 

With all due respect NOCK NOCK, I do agree with a lot of what your saying, a lot of your 6 examples I agree with but most of them have a lot to do with managing our herds which IMHO is what has been suffering for years, hence thats why in my opinion we need a Game Department again. As far as killing a big buck every year, I have taken my share (53 at this point in my life, all Methow Mule deer), some have been wall hangers some have been spikes and 2 points back in the day, for me its about respecting the animal no matter how big, heck my great grandma would never let us hang a deer head down on the ridge pole(even though they are easier to clean ) because in her mind "they were a proud animal and should  always be hung with there head held high" and that tradition of respect is still in our camp today. All the deer my family has killed in the Methow going back to 1917(over 800 bucks)are all trophies and all have special memories attached no matter their size. Its out of that respect why for me anyway I have not purchased a tag in 3 years, I don't frown on those who do but something, heck a lot of things need to be done to save our historic mule deer herds(Methow and Entiat) before they pass the point of no return. There are a couple of us in our camp that have not purchased tags in a few years(our own little protest) but we still go every year, I myself take my 2 granddaughters out every day and put on many miles into old family haunts and honey holes so when the old guard fades away we have the new, younger ones to carry on our camp. That brings me to the odd/even season scenario which you said may break up traditional long time hunting camps and at this point in time I support 100%. I enjoy hunting to much to break up a family or traditional hunting camp, the way I see it someone in our camp or 2 or 3 out of the 6 or 7 will be hunting every year and I can only speak for our group but 101 years of tradition of hunting the Methow will not stop because half our group can hunt and the other half will be sitting out every other year, just like a couple of us have been doing for 3 years they will be another set of eyes, cooks, story tellers, draggers, packers etc etc. but they will be there and hopefully the tradition will continue for another 101 years and like you said, its not always about killing something its just being part of the camp and tradition.