Herrera vs Wyoming

[Igor]

The power of the Legislature to pass treaties is part of the Constitution in Article I. Again, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the rights afforded Natives through these treaties. Just that the people we elected to Congress passed them. Congress can also nullify them. Get on the phone!

It's not the individual rights which are afforded that I have a particular beef with, it's the fact that my little non-legal brain has never been able to grasp the idea that our Constitution applies to everyone, except when it doesn't.  To me "equal protection under the law" means just that.........equal.  I know I'm spinning my wheels on this one, however that doesn't keep me from wondering.........

[PlateauNDN]

When exercising our treaty rights we do not fall under state jurisdiction. When I'm hunting, fishing and gathering outside the Reservation I still fall under tribal laws because I'm exercising my rights, thus the state has no jurisdiction. Our treaties were negotiated with the federal govt not states and maybe you should read article 6 of the Constitution since it comes before 14.

Nope, not much of a cougar hunter, haven't tried hunting them though as I was just saying I dont see them.  As I recall in some recent threads many on here have not seen them either and I recall a member saying in decades of hunting they finally saw 1 and killed it so it seems I'm not the only 1.

[PlateauNDN]

Well, this tribal man is upset as a state that lacks the jurisdiction to terminate treaties and yet, heres Wyoming doing just that. Telling members they cant exercise their rights as guaranteed by the treaties they signed with the feds.

To give an example, this would be like living in ellensburg and Seattle coming to your home and telling you they want your money to pay for utilities and other city services.

[Bigshooter]

Awesome! I thought for sure they would drop the charges, and the Bighorn Mountains would become the Crow Tribe's new hunting grounds. Until they wiped out all the elk, like they have on their reservation.

 


Very good news for hunters.

[Igor]

When exercising our treaty rights we do not fall under state jurisdiction. When I'm hunting, fishing and gathering outside the Reservation I still fall under tribal laws because I'm exercising my rights, thus the state has no jurisdiction. Our treaties were negotiated with the federal govt not states and maybe you should read article 6 of the Constitution since it comes before 14.

Nope, not much of a cougar hunter, haven't tried hunting them though as I was just saying I dont see them.  As I recall in some recent threads many on here have not seen them either and I recall a member saying in decades of hunting they finally saw 1 and killed it so it seems I'm not the only 1.

Our treaties were negotiated with the federal govt not states and maybe you should read article 6 of the Constitution since it comes before 14.

Yep, I'm aware of Article 6 of the Constitution, but thanks for pointing it out to me.  I was not aware that things worked chronologically within the Constitution, but then I don't claim to be a scholar nor an expert in Constitutional law.  I'm just an average type of guy, trying to figure out how this preferential thing works.

[PlateauNDN]

The mentality of the feds at the time of the treaties and for some even til today is that we are/were not citizens. Throughout the Constitution theres references that we are to be treated as sovereign/foreign nations.

Though some tribes had begun to be recognized as citizens of the US it wasnt until the 1920's that collectively all tribes were extended citizenship officially.

What you call preferential treatment was in reality segregation back then. They wanted what we had and they wanted to segregate us from the citizens of the US.

[Igor]

The mentality of the feds at the time of the treaties and for some even til today is that we are/were not citizens. Throughout the Constitution theres references that we are to be treated as sovereign/foreign nations.

Though some tribes had begun to be recognized as citizens of the US it wasnt until the 1920's that collectively all tribes were extended citizenship officially.

What you call preferential treatment was in reality segregation back then. They wanted what we had and they wanted to segregate us from the citizens of the US.

Preferential treatment is preferential treatment, whether it is viewed as either good or bad.  It's not what I "call" it......it is what it is.  It has always been a curiosity to me that people in this country are afforded "rights" simply by accident of birth.  Our country was founded on the concept of equality, yet there are still so many people here who want to be more equal than their brethren......it's their "right".......and they will argue to the death to maintain those "rights".

[PlateauNDN]

Yes, a country that was founded by the genocide of my people and others that were already here.

I will fight and defend treaty rights just as I'm sure your fight for the 2md amendment. Is that any different?

Would you give the 2A up or the 1A?

[sagerat]

Yes, a country that was founded by the genocide of my people and others that were already here.

I will fight and defend treaty rights just as I'm sure your fight for the 2md amendment. Is that any different?

Would you give the 2A up or the 1A?

The 2nd Amendment covers everybody not just a select few.

[PlateauNDN]

Yes it does, but I'm asking would you give it up or let it be taken by force?

[Igor]

Yes, a country that was founded by the genocide of my people and others that were already here.

I will fight and defend treaty rights just as I'm sure your fight for the 2md amendment. Is that any different?

Would you give the 2A up or the 1A?

Yes, there is a huge difference, as I'm certain you are well aware.  Those rights are not a privilege of birth. 

As far as defending your "treaty rights", have at it.  You obviously feel you are entitled by accident  of birth.  I have no interest in this subject other than a mild curiosity, and no intention of getting into a pi$$ing contest.  Thanks for your input to my questions.

[Kazekurt]

I should avoid this topic as it never leads to anything productive but igor makes some good points.  I have family members who are tribal and the issue I see is that they often selectively apply just how sovereign they are and also just how stringent treaties should be interpreted.  On one hand, they say they are not subject to US law, but they darn sure want the projections provided by it.  They also always want to push the limits of their treaties, even if parts are clearly antiquated, but demand modern application on parts that don't favor them.  The bottom line is this: we will never truly be equal, racism will never die, and ethnicity will always be a talking point  as long as people allow themselves to be segregated.  I see it all the time.  People demand equal rights when they think they're getting the short end of the stick, but then fight tooth and nail to justify special privlidge they receive based on race.  You really can't have it both ways. Either we are equal, or we are not.  .  Unfortunately, for political reasons, our nation has allowed this.  For those arguing in favor of special hunting privelidges, would you be in favor of all people being granted that same right?  Do you think all people should be allowed to hunt open and unclaimed lands whenever they want?  My hunch is that you would say no.  anyway, the situation is what it is, I would just like ALL Hunters to use common sense and act in the best interest of our resources and a sustainable hunting tradition. 

[PlateauNDN]

The cover may say it's about hunting, but this is not just about hunting.

Kazekurt, that may be the attitude of them, but it does not represent all of our views.

[Kazekurt]

Plat, my question to you would be this.  Do you really feel that having a sovereign nation with federal entitlements has helped your people?  Most tribes were once a wonder of self sufficiency, and know outside of gaming, which, of course,  only thrives when politicians give you a corner on the market, where do you feel your people are thriving?  I would venture to say that tribal members lag behind the general population in post secondary education, earned income, etc and Especially  if we are talking specifically private sector jobs, and not jobs federally mandated to only be given to tribal members.  Special perks and entitlements may provide a means of survival, but I have seen very few examples in ANY society were people generationally move forward under such a system.  IMHO, tribal members  would have been far better to assimilate decades ago as people tend to thrive and innovate when it's necessary to survive.  Undoubtedly, there are exceptions, but I've spent time on several reservations and they never appear to be places of affluence.  I'm not condoning what happened to the Indians centuries ago, I'm just saying tribal members would be better off  just being Americans.  Almost everyone in the US comes from a background of some sort of oppression, that's just a reality of how most all of our forefathers got here.  Anyway, at the end of the day, we are all God's children and all Americans.  I see no need for subgrouping beyond that.

[PlateauNDN]

The challenge right now is trying to explain and via posts the intricacies of Tribes, the culture, the lifestyle and the meaning. I could give it a try but then I'd be writing a very lengthy short book and spending probably hours typing it.

It's a conversation best given in-person.