Alternative Arms for Coyote

[captpschar]

I did some scouting today in some nearby commercial timberland in western Washington, great to be out, saw a lot of good sign.

I think I've located a few fairly active predator hunting grounds near and around and above a specific stretch of creek, including a couple of what seem to be predator super-highways from the creek beds up into the nearby higher grounds.  I spent most of my time in the higher grounds, and I didn't climb down into the timber bordering the creek today because the terrain was really hairy and I didn't have a walking stick, but there were a few good navigable areas down there that seemed promising enough to go scout later on.

That's all great, BUT, it's looking like the highest traffic areas with the most sign are also pretty tight, sight lines within 100 yards, and the highways are really tight, like horror movie tight, with sign of mountain lion, bobcat, coyote, every damn thing, probably too close for a rifle with optics to be useful for anything but noise.

What do you think? For you guys hunting predators in western Washington: do you usually use rifles, or do you prefer shotguns for the timberland type terrain?  Do any of you use an over-under for the weight savings to help with tight terrain?

If you use a rifle for this kind of terrain, what sort of optics do you use to compensate for the short distances?

Any tips and tricks?

[AWS]

I'm partial to a good combo gun(two triggers and a safety, no hammers to cock or selectors to deal with), either O/U or three barrel Drilling,  it seem that the day you just carry a shotgun a critter will just sit in the trail a hundred yards out.

A rifle with a 1-4 scope works pretty good in the thick stuff also.

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5701/X5aAGk.jpg

This combo gun works well

https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1486/UmGSI4.jpg

[captpschar]

AWS, thanks for the reply.

That combo gun is sort of in the direction of what I was thinking, also it's one of the most awesome things I've ever seen. 

Can you tell me what it is and how you set it up and why you decided to do it that way?  What sort of terrain do you use it in?  What ranges?  If you set up another one like it, what would you do differently?

Beautiful coyotes!

[Tracker0721]

I’m a believer that AWS knows his stuff. I have a 223/12 combo gun and it’s great with the 1-6 scope on it. But for calling really thick timber we’ve used only shotguns and the max range is like 50-60 after patterning which is plenty. Or a rifle with a red dot or 1 or 2 power scope on the lower end. Or iron sights, I’ve used the see thru scope mounts quite a few times

[AWS]

I hunt a lot of tight cover, My moto is "it is easier to call the in the cover than try and call them out of it" so I get in the thick stuff with them.  They lose a lot of wariness when they think they are safe.

Mine is set up this way because it is a very fast handling set up, the scope is mounted as low as possible and the stock built up so my eye is perfectly aligned wiith the scope when it hits my shoulder.  On 1x shooting a flushing pheasant or rabbit on the way back from a stand is possible.  With the 1-4 scope you have nearly a 100' FOV even as close as 10 yards you  can get 3 coyotes end to end in the scope, pick up a moving coyote in the brush faster and see an opening ahead  for a shot and still have the coyote in the scope.

Two triggers and a safety allow instant selection of rifle or barrel and no need to reach up and cock the thing for BOTH shots.  I tried a Savage 24 223/20ga, it is a disaster as far as a predator hunting.  The scope has to be mounted too high to be able to cock the hammer and select the barrel you want to shoot, and to shoot again you have to cock it again and change the selector.  Regulation is a real problem with 24 getting both barrels to shoot to the point of aim can be hard as they are not adjustable.   Vamet, Biakal and Marrochis are adjustable,  Good European combo guns that have solid(soldered togeth like a sxs shotgun)are well regulated from the factory but they weren't $200 when they were new but you can find some very nice ones for under $K some considerable less if you are willing to deal with obsolete or at least not the latest and greatest.  I've had combo guns for coyotes in 222 Rem, 5.6x50R Mag(222 Rem Magnum on steroids) and the 22 Sav Highpower(5.6x52R).

I set all my combo guns up the same, it works for me.  Ranges run from 40+ yards for the shotgun, I use a light load 1 1/4 oz of Nickle plated BB's I don't have to reach out with the shotgun as I have the rifle for anything out to 300 yards.

The combo gun shown is a BRNO 305 in 22 Sav Highpower/12ga .

Here is a Bernardelli 5.6x50R Mag/12ga.  Same one as in my avatar.  Sorry I'm away from home and cant post pics just links.

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1979/KEncNP.jpg

German Drilling(three barrels) 16ga/16ga/6.5x58R Sauer(pretty close to a 25-35 Winchester in performance)), ugly coyote but good pic of the drilling, 1 oz of NP BB's killed both the coyotes shown

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/623/h2kMEy.jpg

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1262/mF8Jow.jpg

The BRNO at 300 yards

https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1251/ZQlIF8.jpg

The Drilling at 200 yards

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3594/BOxtQQ.jpg

[AWS]

Some pics without links

This one hung up at about 80 yards and fell to a 52gr Speer HP 12/ 5.6x50R Mag

 otobucket.com/user/Browndaug/media/Az%20and%20NM%202013%20012_zpsyne4wcvh.jpg.html][/url]
 
 


12/22 Savage Highpower(5.6x52R)  39 paces with 1 1/4 ounce of NP BB's



   

[captpschar]

I’m a believer that AWS knows his stuff. I have a 223/12 combo gun and it’s great with the 1-6 scope on it. But for calling really thick timber we’ve used only shotguns and the max range is like 50-60 after patterning which is plenty. Or a rifle with a red dot or 1 or 2 power scope on the lower end. Or iron sights, I’ve used the see thru scope mounts quite a few times

Tracker0721 - He really is making a lot of sense, and I'm glad to get a look at his setup and some of his reasoning/experiences.  One thing that always makes me a believer in someone's thinking on how to get things done is when they discuss the bare bones functionality of a piece of equipment or an approach, for me it's a clear sign that they're speaking from a basic place of how to get the job done, rather than making a show of things.  I love it.

I've only ever done passive hunting, or hunting little guys that like to freeze when they spot you hoping you haven't seen them.  Either way I've always had plenty of control over the ranges and plenty of time to set up my shots.  Calling in coyotes in dense terrain and more often than not being surprised at closer than I'd like range is going to be new for me.  I'm glad to hear you've done some work with low power scopes and iron sights in those conditions and had success.

Based on what you and AWS are saying, I think my solution might have to be a 1-4 scope, or a canted picatinny holographic sight.  My rifle hasn't got iron sights, my shotgun is heavy and rattles and while a combo gun would be a dream come true, I haven't got one in the budget at the moment.

I'm looking hard at this:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020065678/bushnell-ar-optics-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-1-4x-24mm-1-10-mil-adjustments-first-focal-illuminated-reticle-matte

What do you think?  Reasonable for closer faster work based on your experience?

[captpschar]

Is that self-adhesive athletic wrap around that barrel?  It's good to see someone thinking like me, especially with the sharpie to break up the shape.  Matte surface, broken out up shape, camo complete.  Good enough is good enough, lol. 

I've always been interested in the utilitarian European over unders but I've not been able to figure out how to source them in the US.  Is there a reliable way to get them new?  Who do I talk to about that, or which website do I visit?  I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I could find one.

[CastleRocker]

I've always wanted a "Masterkey", or something like "Billy" had in the movie Predator for coyotes here on the Wet-side.  An AR with an 870 mounted under the forend.  I think it would be pretty heavy, and I've always wondered about how well the forend would take the recoil. 

[AWS]

Vet wrap for the barrel, it doesn't leave residue on the barrel.  I buy a dozen rolls at a time from a online vet supply.

[konradcountry]

I think for Western Wa a short barrel AR is tough to beat. By short I mean no longer than 16. Fast follow-up shots and easy to carry around.

I like shotguns and will sometimes take one in the woods but you risk spotting one out of range. This happened to me not long ago. I was checking a trail cam near my house and a coyote stopped in front of me about 100 yards away.

What I like about the shotgun is that you can take a bear if one comes in.

I load a #4 followed by 00. If I somehow missed with the 4 then I want the 00 for range.

[captpschar]

Vet wrap for the barrel, it doesn't leave residue on the barrel.  I buy a dozen rolls at a time from a online vet supply.

Great tip on the vet wrap!  The human stuff is way more pricey for what seems to be exactly the same thing.

[captpschar]

I've always wanted a "Masterkey", or something like "Billy" had in the movie Predator for coyotes here on the Wet-side.  An AR with an 870 mounted under the forend.  I think it would be pretty heavy, and I've always wondered about how well the forend would take the recoil.

You know, I watched that movie so many damn times, I never noticed Billy's gun was so oddball.   Go figure.

[captpschar]

I think for Western Wa a short barrel AR is tough to beat. By short I mean no longer than 16. Fast follow-up shots and easy to carry around.

You may be right on this one.  I'll have to look into it next year.

I like shotguns and will sometimes take one in the woods but you risk spotting one out of range. This happened to me not long ago. I was checking a trail cam near my house and a coyote stopped in front of me about 100 yards away.

What I like about the shotgun is that you can take a bear if one comes in.

I load a #4 followed by 00. If I somehow missed with the 4 then I want the 00 for range.

That predator super-highway I mentioned was kind of winding passage of about 40 yards long and 3 wide of sparse brush that was open low down, walled in by impassable stuff on either side, at the top of a ridge above some lower watery areas below.  It must've been the top of some easy pass up from below (I didn't scout down).  It had coyote scat all over the place, what looked like bobcat here and there, and what must have been cougar as well... when I saw that cougar scat and the wind dead and all in the silence and the fog, I was wishing like hell I had my shotgun.

That's a good idea to go 00 after the #4, that hadn't occurred to me.  Pro tip!

[ghosthunter]

I am just getting in to yote, so know nothing. But I am going to use a Remington vtr in 223.
And for close in try using my KSG with red dot and choke tubes for close in work.

[captpschar]

I am just getting in to yote, so know nothing. But I am going to use a Remington vtr in 223.
And for close in try using my KSG with red dot and choke tubes for close in work.

I'm just getting into predators too.  I expect to spend most of my 'hunting' time scouting and learning to call and move properly for the first six months to a year.  I honestly doubt I'll manage to get a shot on a coyote before summer, but hey, if it happens I'd like a terrain appropriate arm.

I'm currently setting up my rifle based on the advice I've gotten on this thread and elsewhere, and it's looking like I may have to add a fair bit of target acquisition and handling practice to my skill building if I expect to make this work on the land I've chosen to use.  *censored* hunting is great.

[konradcountry]

That predator super-highway I mentioned was kind of winding passage of about 40 yards long and 3 wide of sparse brush that was open low down, walled in by impassable stuff on either side, at the top of a ridge above some lower watery areas below.  It must've been the top of some easy pass up from below (I didn't scout down).  It had coyote scat all over the place, what looked like bobcat here and there, and what must have been cougar as well... when I saw that cougar scat and the wind dead and all in the silence and the fog, I was wishing like hell I had my shotgun.

That's a good idea to go 00 after the #4, that hadn't occurred to me.  Pro tip!

If your max shot is 40 yards in timber then I would definitely take a shotgun. It's better for brush shots.

Some people like a red dot but I prefer a fiber. Just don't use a stock bead sight that doesn't show up in low light. The truglo fibers are cheap and easy to install.

Keep your back to a tree where it is hard for anything to sneak up behind you. Have a sidearm ready.

Be careful and let us know how it goes.

[davef]

How about a semi auto 22? Like a 10/22 ruger with some good ammo.

[CAMPMEAT]

22 TCM. They make a rifle and 1911..

I have and does a lot of damage on ground squirrels.....

[captpschar]

If your max shot is 40 yards in timber then I would definitely take a shotgun. It's better for brush shots.

Some people like a red dot but I prefer a fiber. Just don't use a stock bead sight that doesn't show up in low light. The truglo fibers are cheap and easy to install.

Keep your back to a tree where it is hard for anything to sneak up behind you. Have a sidearm ready.

Be careful and let us know how it goes.

Max shot is probably 200 yards, depending on which stands in the area produce, but there are some areas and stands I don't think are going to produce anything further than 75 yards, and a few places, like that corridor, that are way tighter. 

I just ordered in a 1.5x4 leupold that I'll pair with my pistol, hopefully that combo does well.  Do you like to draw your pistol and lay it out before you call?

I've been looking at those fiber optic shotgun sights for years, you just sold me.

[konradcountry]

How about a semi auto 22? Like a 10/22 ruger with some good ammo.

Visit NW Trek and watch the cougars.

I've seen one jump 15' into a tree like it was a housecat jumping on a couch.

Don't call predators in the woods with a 22.

I could see using a semi auto 22 in an urban area under 50 yards with the right ammo but I'd rather use 22 WMR. With 22lr there is too much risk of it running off.

[davef]

I'd rather use a lot of different things but the OP made it sound unsafe to use center fire rifles. .22 mag would definitely be better. I assumed we we talking about coyotes not cougar, although people do drop cats out of trees with 22s

[konradcountry]

I just ordered in a 1.5x4 leupold that I'll pair with my pistol, hopefully that combo does well.  Do you like to draw your pistol and lay it out before you call?

Yea I normally keep it hot next to me on top of my bag and loaded with hard cast bullets.

[konradcountry]

I'd rather use a lot of different things but the OP made it sound unsafe to use center fire rifles. .22 mag would definitely be better. I assumed we we talking about coyotes not cougar, although people do drop cats out of trees with 22s

Talking about coyotes but he is going deep in the woods to predator call.

[captpschar]

I'd rather use a lot of different things but the OP made it sound unsafe to use center fire rifles. .22 mag would definitely be better. I assumed we we talking about coyotes not cougar, although people do drop cats out of trees with 22s

Talking about coyotes but he is going deep in the woods to predator call.

Konrad has it, I’m working on an area that’s 2-3 miles into some timberland off a rural area that itself is a few miles from anything like civilized, and it seems to be covered in all kinds of predators.

 Last time I went in, I saw someone near the entrance gate, and then five hours later I saw someone at the gate as I was leaving,  and between those times I didn’t see or hear another human that wasn’t some guy 3-4 miles off having his Sunday Gunday in his back yard.

My main concern, and the source of my question, is that I’ll be in there with those furries solo, and there are a lot of really tight spots in there as well as some open areas.  I had a double concern of handling close-in encounters for hunting, but also handling them for the possibility of being surprised by a cougar or something in a tight spot, while preferring to make stands with some distance involved.  I was hoping to find out how other hunters had adapted to that kind of terrain and those kinds of possibilities.

So far I’ve seen guys who use combo guns, guys who use really close optics on their rifles, guys who set up with a secondary arm ready to go, and guys who just go with shotguns and live with the missed opportunities.

I’m going to go with close optic rifle and secondary pistol, because I already have the equipment and I’d like to try for those longer ranges.  If that doesn’t feel right to me or I can’t get my rifle handling skills developed enough to deal with closer range quicker shots, I’ll just have to go shotgun or combo gun.

Lord knows I’m not packing two long guns that deep.

[captpschar]

How about a semi auto 22? Like a 10/22 ruger with some good ammo.

Visit NW Trek and watch the cougars.

I've seen one jump 15' into a tree like it was a housecat jumping on a couch.

Don't call predators in the woods with a 22.

I could see using a semi auto 22 in an urban area under 50 yards with the right ammo but I'd rather use 22 WMR. With 22lr there is too much risk of it running off.

Maybe one of those Volquartsen 22mag semi autos?  Like between 50yards and 100yards I bet those things would be amazing, and I’d be confident with it for a tight spot, he’ll even a larger pack of coyotes would be in trouble vs one of those with a large capacity magazine.

[davef]

In that case I'd just carry a lightweight ar15 and have a blast

[Tjkride]

I run a recce 16 type ar with an ACOG for all my predator stuff, 0 to 400 is covered and for upclose the fixed 4x magnification hasnt given me an issue. Ive taken deer (legally in TN), coyotes, bobcat, porcupine,hogs, and grouse with it no problem. I run 55 grain speer gold dot soft points. Its my do-all non-game animal and house/truck gun.

[captpschar]

I run a recce 16 type ar with an ACOG for all my predator stuff, 0 to 400 is covered and for upclose the fixed 4x magnification hasnt given me an issue. Ive taken deer (legally in TN), coyotes, bobcat, porcupine,hogs, and grouse with it no problem. I run 55 grain speer gold dot soft points. Its my do-all non-game animal and house/truck gun.

How far out are you comfortable taking shots with the 4x?  Do you like the fixed power better?  What do you like about it?

[AWS]

I have no problem taking shots to 300 yards with a 4x.

https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1251/ZQlIF8.jpg

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9600/Q7DaGR.jpg

[captpschar]

I have no problem taking shots to 300 yards with a 4x.

https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1251/ZQlIF8.jpg

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9600/Q7DaGR.jpg

Good, cause I'm not much good past 250 anyway. 

[Tjkride]

It helps alot that the loads I run match the ta-31 reticle almost perfect, but 300 yards is very comfortable in less the decent conditions, 400 is ok in ideal conditions and I do my part. I prefer the fixed 4x because Im not always worried about what magnification I'm on and upclose 4x is ok at 20 yards but closer and I end up point shooting.

[captpschar]

It helps alot that the loads I run match the ta-31 reticle almost perfect, but 300 yards is very comfortable in less the decent conditions, 400 is ok in ideal conditions and I do my part. I prefer the fixed 4x because Im not always worried about what magnification I'm on and upclose 4x is ok at 20 yards but closer and I end up point shooting.

I'm thinking my .243 can stay within a 2"-3" MPBR out to 250 yards, depending on my cartridge choice, and that I'll be able to treat it like a ray-gun inside of that range with the 1.5-4x optics. 

In thinking about some of the things you' and others have said, I decided to do some mathing today to figure out how large a coyote silhouette I'd have to have posted on a wall 8 feet away from me to give the same appearance as coyotes that are 10, 25, 50, and 100 yards away, and plan to use a few that I printed to scale to practice my acquisition from different positions with the new setup, to build some confidence with quick shooting skills and familiarize myself with the new optic.  Hopefully the shotgun skills translate decently well to the scoped rifle.   I may even incorporate my handgun.

Something may be wrong with me.

Thanks guys.

[captpschar]

Thanks guys, here is the result: