In a state without predator management...

[SuperX]

Can we still afford to manage herds for quality bulls instead of managing for overall numbers?

[DOUBLELUNG]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

[SuperX]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

Hmm, seems unlikely, and pretty counter intuitive to say that under increasing pressure from predators, we need to hunt the cows and leave the bulls alone. 

[DOUBLELUNG]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

Hmm, seems unlikely, and pretty counter intuitive to say that under increasing pressure from predators, we need to hunt the cows and leave the bulls alone. 

I don't think I wrote anything about needing to hunt cows.  Antler point restrictions are about maintaining sufficient bull age structure to synchronize breeding.  Cow hunting is a tool for maintaining or reducing herd size, not managing for trophy bulls.

[KFhunter]

I applaud the Colville's for doing something I cannot,  but GAAAAAWWDang!!! does it stick in my craw they're doing things in the national forest that I cannot only because I'm white....

I just can't get over it, pissing me off so bad.   I don't blame the Indians at all, but I'm freaking hating on Washington bad.

[JimmyHoffa]

I applaud the Colville's for doing something I cannot,  but GAAAAAWWDang!!! does it stick in my craw they're doing things in the national forest that I cannot only because I'm white....

I just can't get over it, pissing me off so bad.   I don't blame the Indians at all, but I'm freaking hating on Washington bad.

There are tribes that didn't push for treaties and ended up without any extra rights.

[SuperX]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

Hmm, seems unlikely, and pretty counter intuitive to say that under increasing pressure from predators, we need to hunt the cows and leave the bulls alone. 

I don't think I wrote anything about needing to hunt cows.  Antler point restrictions are about maintaining sufficient bull age structure to synchronize breeding.  Cow hunting is a tool for maintaining or reducing herd size, not managing for trophy bulls.

Yeah, that last sentence is what I believe too.  The trade off I wanted to discuss is should we switch the focus to growing herds as a buffer to depredation while keeping opportunity and success for hunters at a reasonable level (to be determined).   I fear that the current system, with an additional apex predator or two introduced to the equation, will have to get more restrictive on human hunters and we'll lose opportunity to hunt at all in some places.

As to bull maturity affecting spring cow/calf ratios is an old theory that hasn't held up according to a quick search "Sire age had no effect on mean dates of calf births or on calf weights. Neither sire age nor season of grazing by cattle had significant effects on calf weights". 

If it were true, killing herd bulls would be a bad thing to do, so we should end antler restrictions?

https://bioone.org/journals/wildlife-biology/volume-19/issue-3/12-051/Reproduction-in-North-American-elk-i--span-classgenus-speciesCervus/10.2981/12-051.full

 

[SuperX]

I applaud the Colville's for doing something I cannot,  but GAAAAAWWDang!!! does it stick in my craw they're doing things in the national forest that I cannot only because I'm white....

I just can't get over it, pissing me off so bad.   I don't blame the Indians at all, but I'm freaking hating on Washington bad.

I didn't post this in wolves, can we stop with the racist BS?

[Skyvalhunter]

Really much of our so called quality deer or elk hunts are no longer quality hunts but buck or bull hunts. That line between a quality hunt and buck or bull hunt to shrinking.

[SuperX]

Really much of our so called quality deer or elk hunts are no longer quality hunts but buck or bull hunts. That line between a quality hunt and buck or bull hunt to shrinking.

  Sadly too true

[vandeman17]

I applaud the Colville's for doing something I cannot,  but GAAAAAWWDang!!! does it stick in my craw they're doing things in the national forest that I cannot only because I'm white....

I just can't get over it, pissing me off so bad.   I don't blame the Indians at all, but I'm freaking hating on Washington bad.

I didn't post this in wolves, can we stop with the racist BS?

Wolves are predators correct? I think his post has relevance in this thread 

I also do not see anything racist in his post. He just made a point about two different groups having different rights 

[hunter399]

I applaud the Colville's for doing something I cannot,  but GAAAAAWWDang!!! does it stick in my craw they're doing things in the national forest that I cannot only because I'm white....

I just can't get over it, pissing me off so bad.   I don't blame the Indians at all, but I'm freaking hating on Washington bad.

I didn't post this in wolves, can we stop with the racist BS?

Wolves are predators correct? I think his post has relevance in this thread 

I also do not see anything racist in his post. He just made a point about two different groups having different rights 

It's the fact he used indian instead of native American or just native.
People are so touchy these days on racist stuff it's really unbelievable but it is what it is .I don't wig out of someone calls me whitety but I'm a little more racist chill.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

Hmm, seems unlikely, and pretty counter intuitive to say that under increasing pressure from predators, we need to hunt the cows and leave the bulls alone. 

I don't think I wrote anything about needing to hunt cows.  Antler point restrictions are about maintaining sufficient bull age structure to synchronize breeding.  Cow hunting is a tool for maintaining or reducing herd size, not managing for trophy bulls.

Yeah, that last sentence is what I believe too.  The trade off I wanted to discuss is should we switch the focus to growing herds as a buffer to depredation while keeping opportunity and success for hunters at a reasonable level (to be determined).   I fear that the current system, with an additional apex predator or two introduced to the equation, will have to get more restrictive on human hunters and we'll lose opportunity to hunt at all in some places.

As to bull maturity affecting spring cow/calf ratios is an old theory that hasn't held up according to a quick search "Sire age had no effect on mean dates of calf births or on calf weights. Neither sire age nor season of grazing by cattle had significant effects on calf weights". 

If it were true, killing herd bulls would be a bad thing to do, so we should end antler restrictions?

https://bioone.org/journals/wildlife-biology/volume-19/issue-3/12-051/Reproduction-in-North-American-elk-i--span-classgenus-speciesCervus/10.2981/12-051.full

I get from that article that if bred, the offspring is not affected by the age of the sire. However it does not address breeding COMPETITION which is an important factor if trying to have calves drop in a short window. Competitive breeding rights help assure cows get bred quickly, even if bred by younger bulls that are competing. Another thing left out is cow competition as well.

If trying to grow a herd, I think reducing pressure on cows is the most important thing given those cows get covered. If that coincides with a breeding structure where calves drop in a short window reducing calf mortality, double win.

[SuperX]

Yes.  Having an older age structure in an elk herd isn't just for big bulls to shoot, it synchronizes calf drop and results in less newborn mortality by predators that can only efficiently hunt elk in their first 1-2 weeks of age (coyotes, bobcats, black bear).  Having all the calves hit the ground as close together as possible reduces the impact of neonate predation.

When there are only young bulls breeding, cows delay breeding seeking large mature bulls which they have evolved to select as mates.  In addition to desynchronizing calving, having breeding done by yearlings and raghorns can result in reduced survival post-rut of those smaller bulls.  When there are mature bulls in the herd, reproductive effort by young bulls is suppressed, and they go into fall and winter with higher fat reserves and better overwinter survival.

Hmm, seems unlikely, and pretty counter intuitive to say that under increasing pressure from predators, we need to hunt the cows and leave the bulls alone. 

I don't think I wrote anything about needing to hunt cows.  Antler point restrictions are about maintaining sufficient bull age structure to synchronize breeding.  Cow hunting is a tool for maintaining or reducing herd size, not managing for trophy bulls.

Yeah, that last sentence is what I believe too.  The trade off I wanted to discuss is should we switch the focus to growing herds as a buffer to depredation while keeping opportunity and success for hunters at a reasonable level (to be determined).   I fear that the current system, with an additional apex predator or two introduced to the equation, will have to get more restrictive on human hunters and we'll lose opportunity to hunt at all in some places.

As to bull maturity affecting spring cow/calf ratios is an old theory that hasn't held up according to a quick search "Sire age had no effect on mean dates of calf births or on calf weights. Neither sire age nor season of grazing by cattle had significant effects on calf weights". 

If it were true, killing herd bulls would be a bad thing to do, so we should end antler restrictions?

https://bioone.org/journals/wildlife-biology/volume-19/issue-3/12-051/Reproduction-in-North-American-elk-i--span-classgenus-speciesCervus/10.2981/12-051.full

I get from that article that if bred, the offspring is not affected by the age of the sire. However it does not address breeding COMPETITION which is an important factor if trying to have calves drop in a short window. Competitive breeding rights help assure cows get bred quickly, even if bred by younger bulls that are competing. Another thing left out is cow competition as well.

If trying to grow a herd, I think reducing pressure on cows is the most important thing given those cows get covered. If that coincides with a breeding structure where calves drop in a short window reducing calf mortality, double win.

Read the study at the link, your idea of what is happening to make calves drop at the same time isn't really happening because of the maturity of the bull.  The study proved the bull has little to do with it and cows breed with 9 month old bulls as readily as older bulls, but older bulls are able to bully the younger bulls away from her until she was ready.  Typical rut stuff, big guy wins, no big guy in the herd, no problem. 

[Jonathan_S]

It's the timing that comes from herd bulls breeding that youre.missing which @DOUBLELUNG (who is uniquely qualified to comment on the subject) is pointing out