Rethinking Berger bullets for hunting

[BULLBLASTER]

This bear was killed with a 215 at close range. Impact velocity of 2900+ 3-4 inch exit hole in the hide and certainly didn’t explode and fail to penetrate.

[carpsniperg2]

I would never say they cant kill and they do have a sweet spot which works very well. I consider a failure when the bullet fails to penetrate into the abdominal cavity. Not that the shot was bad and didn't turn out. I have watched with my own 2 eyes a bull be shot 6 times from 150 to 20 yards with a 300wsm. All of them would have been vital hits with any bullet other then a berger. Only 2 of the 6 made it inside the chest cavity and the damage was minimal at best. 4 out of 6 bullets were completely designated under the hide on ribs or shoulder. That is 100% a pure strait up failure for a bullet regardless of a dead animal at the end. Now could it have been a bad batch? maybe but to many people have seen high velocity poor penetration on anything other then ribs and behind the shoulder shots. Lots of guys kill plenty animals with them just like chris and karl and guys I know to be legit strait up guys. Just as they know I am and I have nothing to gain by telling of my personal expiernce with them. Shooting and being present for the hunts.


I also have several family members and firends that still hunt with them and I have seen some great kills. Most coming from 2000/2400 fps impact velocity at extended ranges. Close range, not so much. Shot placement is key in hunting but a bullet that wont enter into the vitals and do damage or minimal damge is not for me. Ive shot them and hunted with them and love them on paper but on avgerage. I have seen enough that I didnt care for and some true strait up failures. That I just cant hunt them, other do and thats the spice of life diversity and different of opionos behind people that are hunting and killing plenty of animals.

[Rob]

I shoot the 168 grain BVLD hunting bullets in my 7mm RM. 

So far they have been the best shooting bullet in terms of accuracy I have found for that rifle and have killed everything I have hit with them.  Total of 8 animals (3 mule deer, 2 Elk, 1 pronghorn, 1 axis deer, and 1 zebra) with distances from 90 (mule deer) to 380 yards (Elk).  I really want to move to a different bullet though.  Here is why:
-In every case the bullet has left a pencil hole entrance wound, and no exit wound.
-The bullets have all exploded inside and I have not found a piece more than 22 grains in weight inside.

In the event I have a bad hit, I really want a blood trail.  Case in point:  I had a scope issue with my rifle on the Zebra that resulted in a broad side shot at 270 yards that was a solid 3 feet left of the point of aim (no wind, good rest).  If I had not been with a set of professional trackers and guides I am pretty sure I never would have recovered that animal as there was no blood trail to follow. 

I was hopeful the Swift A-frame would shoot well, and they do, but not as good as the Berger's.  The BC is not as good, but I am not a long range hunter - it takes a lot for me to want to shoot beyond 300 yards, and 400 to 500 is my cap right now.  IMO nearly every hunting bullet will perform good enough to 500 yards to not be too concerned with BC.  I am only really concerned with Accuracy (firstly), and bullet performance in terms of expansion and penetration (Secondly).

I will keep searching, but plan on using the Berger's until I find one that is no more than +10% of the MOA I get with the Berger's

[Karl Blanchard]

I shoot the 168 grain BVLD hunting bullets in my 7mm RM. 

So far they have been the best shooting bullet in terms of accuracy I have found for that rifle and have killed everything I have hit with them.  Total of 8 animals (3 mule deer, 2 Elk, 1 pronghorn, 1 axis deer, and 1 zebra) with distances from 90 (mule deer) to 380 yards (Elk).  I really want to move to a different bullet though.  Here is why:
-In every case the bullet has left a pencil hole entrance wound, and no exit wound.
-The bullets have all exploded inside and I have not found a piece more than 22 grains in weight inside.

In the event I have a bad hit, I really want a blood trail.  Case in point:  I had a scope issue with my rifle on the Zebra that resulted in a broad side shot at 270 yards that was a solid 3 feet left of the point of aim (no wind, good rest).  If I had not been with a set of professional trackers and guides I am pretty sure I never would have recovered that animal as there was no blood trail to follow. 

I was hopeful the Swift A-frame would shoot well, and they do, but not as good as the Berger's.  The BC is not as good, but I am not a long range hunter - it takes a lot for me to want to shoot beyond 300 yards, and 400 to 500 is my cap right now.  IMO nearly every hunting bullet will perform good enough to 500 yards to not be too concerned with BC.  I am only really concerned with Accuracy (firstly), and bullet performance in terms of expansion and penetration (Secondly).

I will keep searching, but plan on using the Berger's until I find one that is no more than +10% of the MOA I get with the Berger's

the thing about bullets is they all can do goofy things. I've recovered accubonds from animals at sub 100 yard shots from magnum rifles and then I've had accubonds pass through well passed ranges they should. I had a whitetail run 400 yards, stop, and tip over dead after I sent a 165gr ballistic tip through his heart and 125 yards. It was goo but for some reason he was able to keep the wheels turning. Shooting a different bullet doesnt guarantee an exit, and I'd still argue that a bullet that sheds some material is your friend on a poor hit. Higher odds of one of those pieces cutting something vital.  Vast majority of berger kills I see actually do have an exit. The base of the bullet usually finds it's way out somewhere.

I agree with you that far too many people consider the b.c. of a bullet and unless they are shooting farther than 5 or 6 hundo they just shouldn't even think about it. That said, even if I was a hard line 400 and in guy, I'd still shoot the biggest within reason berger and I'd still push em hard. As big as I can stabilize anyways.

[jasnt]

I would never say they cant kill and they do have a sweet spot which works very well. I consider a failure when the bullet fails to penetrate into the abdominal cavity. Not that the shot was bad and didn't turn out. I have watched with my own 2 eyes a bull be shot 6 times from 150 to 20 yards with a 300wsm. All of them would have been vital hits with any bullet other then a berger. Only 2 of the 6 made it inside the chest cavity and the damage was minimal at best. 4 out of 6 bullets were completely designated under the hide on ribs or shoulder. That is 100% a pure strait up failure for a bullet regardless of a dead animal at the end. Now could it have been a bad batch? maybe but to many people have seen high velocity poor penetration on anything other then ribs and behind the shoulder shots. Lots of guys kill plenty animals with them just like chris and karl and guys I know to be legit strait up guys. Just as they know I am and I have nothing to gain by telling of my personal expiernce with them. Shooting and being present for the hunts.


I also have several family members and firends that still hunt with them and I have seen some great kills. Most coming from 2000/2400 fps impact velocity at extended ranges. Close range, not so much. Shot placement is key in hunting but a bullet that wont enter into the vitals and do damage or minimal damge is not for me. Ive shot them and hunted with them and love them on paper but on avgerage. I have seen enough that I didnt care for and some true strait up failures. That I just cant hunt them, other do and thats the spice of life diversity and different of opionos behind people that are hunting and killing plenty of animals.

are you sure they where hunting bullets and not target? Many story’s I’ve heard about this happening ended up being target.  I believe your story but have never seen results like that my self.  I’ve never taken an elk but many deer at 20-30 yards in my food plot and almost always have an exit. 

[Karl Blanchard]

I would never say they cant kill and they do have a sweet spot which works very well. I consider a failure when the bullet fails to penetrate into the abdominal cavity. Not that the shot was bad and didn't turn out. I have watched with my own 2 eyes a bull be shot 6 times from 150 to 20 yards with a 300wsm. All of them would have been vital hits with any bullet other then a berger. Only 2 of the 6 made it inside the chest cavity and the damage was minimal at best. 4 out of 6 bullets were completely designated under the hide on ribs or shoulder. That is 100% a pure strait up failure for a bullet regardless of a dead animal at the end. Now could it have been a bad batch? maybe but to many people have seen high velocity poor penetration on anything other then ribs and behind the shoulder shots. Lots of guys kill plenty animals with them just like chris and karl and guys I know to be legit strait up guys. Just as they know I am and I have nothing to gain by telling of my personal expiernce with them. Shooting and being present for the hunts.


I also have several family members and firends that still hunt with them and I have seen some great kills. Most coming from 2000/2400 fps impact velocity at extended ranges. Close range, not so much. Shot placement is key in hunting but a bullet that wont enter into the vitals and do damage or minimal damge is not for me. Ive shot them and hunted with them and love them on paper but on avgerage. I have seen enough that I didnt care for and some true strait up failures. That I just cant hunt them, other do and thats the spice of life diversity and different of opionos behind people that are hunting and killing plenty of animals.

are you sure they where hunting bullets and not target? Many story’s I’ve heard about this happening ended up being target.  I believe your story but have never seen results like that my self.  I’ve never taken an elk but many deer at 20-30 yards in my food plot and almost always have an exit.

the base or core has to go somewhere. My experience is they exit.

[b23]

I would never say they cant kill and they do have a sweet spot which works very well. I consider a failure when the bullet fails to penetrate into the abdominal cavity. Not that the shot was bad and didn't turn out. I have watched with my own 2 eyes a bull be shot 6 times from 150 to 20 yards with a 300wsm. All of them would have been vital hits with any bullet other then a berger. Only 2 of the 6 made it inside the chest cavity and the damage was minimal at best. 4 out of 6 bullets were completely designated under the hide on ribs or shoulder. That is 100% a pure strait up failure for a bullet regardless of a dead animal at the end. Now could it have been a bad batch? maybe but to many people have seen high velocity poor penetration on anything other then ribs and behind the shoulder shots. Lots of guys kill plenty animals with them just like chris and karl and guys I know to be legit strait up guys. Just as they know I am and I have nothing to gain by telling of my personal expiernce with them. Shooting and being present for the hunts.


I also have several family members and firends that still hunt with them and I have seen some great kills. Most coming from 2000/2400 fps impact velocity at extended ranges. Close range, not so much. Shot placement is key in hunting but a bullet that wont enter into the vitals and do damage or minimal damge is not for me. Ive shot them and hunted with them and love them on paper but on avgerage. I have seen enough that I didnt care for and some true strait up failures. That I just cant hunt them, other do and thats the spice of life diversity and different of opionos behind people that are hunting and killing plenty of animals.

I'm not saying I don't believe, because I've talked to you and bought from you and I think you're a solid guy, but I gotta be honest, this one is a bit of a stretch for me.

I will say, adrenaline in a elk is some powerful stuff and I've seen them take a lot of hits and keep on going, particularly, when shot at close range and they spooked and got to running or were being driven hard by the pursuer/s.  Having hunted elk in the Hanford area, a lot, over the years I've seen all kinds of crazy stuff and it was sometimes a full on rodeo and almost dangerous when clowns would get into a good size herd and start blazing away.

[carpsniperg2]

Was on the hunt was not the shooter, was told they were hunting model. When I saw the performance I questioned if it was the target model as well.
I was a skinner and witness. There was nothing but tons of fragments and bullet bits no base no nothing left.
Estimated impact velocity was around 2900-3000fps on the shots.

Trust me, I got better things to do then make stuff up on the web. Actually I hate telling the story as I like quick clean kills and this was anything but that.

[jasnt]

Was on the hunt was not the shooter, was told they were hunting model. When I saw the performance I questioned if it was the target model as well.
I was a skinner and witness. There was nothing but tons of fragments and bullet bits no base no nothing left.
Estimated impact velocity was around 2900-3000fps on the shots.

Trust me, I got better things to do then make stuff up on the web. Actually I hate telling the story as I like quick clean kills and this was anything but that.

what year was that? Possibly before Berger switched to the j4 jacket?

[carpsniperg2]

jasnt 2013 was the year.

[yorketransport]

I was just taking a cheap shot at Berger bullets and then all the fanboy's show up with their "real world experience". It's like a Creedmoor thread.

I decided that I'm not going to use the Bergers for hunting even though they shoot well. The 143 Hammer Hunters are holding .5 MOA @ 3140 fps with no load work and even the 155gr Cutting Edge MTH is under .5 MOA at 2960 fps. Besides, the state of California told me that lead toxic! I can't kill stuff with a bullet made of something that could kill them.

[jasnt]

I’d say it’s more a way of life than a fan club

[BULLBLASTER]

I was just taking a cheap shot at Berger bullets and then all the fanboy's show up with their "real world experience". It's like a Creedmoor thread.

I decided that I'm not going to use the Bergers for hunting even though they shoot well. The 143 Hammer Hunters are holding .5 MOA @ 3140 fps with no load work and even the 155gr Cutting Edge MTH is under .5 MOA at 2960 fps. Besides, the state of California told me that lead toxic! I can't kill stuff with a bullet made of something that could kill them.

You just don’t have the cojones for hunting with Berger’s!

 

[yorketransport]

I was just taking a cheap shot at Berger bullets and then all the fanboy's show up with their "real world experience". It's like a Creedmoor thread.

I decided that I'm not going to use the Bergers for hunting even though they shoot well. The 143 Hammer Hunters are holding .5 MOA @ 3140 fps with no load work and even the 155gr Cutting Edge MTH is under .5 MOA at 2960 fps. Besides, the state of California told me that lead toxic! I can't kill stuff with a bullet made of something that could kill them.

You just don’t have the cojones for hunting with Berger’s!

 

I accept this.

I'm already outside of my comfort zone using a 7mm and a rifle at the same time, don't pressure me here! I'll probably revert back to my old ways and grab one of the pistols anyways. I haven't shot anything with the 338 SnipeTac pistol yet....

[Karl Blanchard]

Sorry York but the Berger haters showed up way before the Berger fanboys