Deer Antler Point Regs

[nwwanderer]

I have washed a bunch of hogs, Sitka covers it will!!!!!

[buckfvr]

Their antlers at a young age dont determine their antlers at maturity, especially when many bucks are born late.  Thats established.  Besides, its not about antler / trophy potential anyway.  Aprs are about protecting the youngest, most vulnerable bucks to increase percentage of bucks in the herd, and the age class of bucks, resulting in a more healthy naturally functioning deer herd, a more intense rut, higher buck winter survival, and s higher fawn survival from a saturation effect of a more condensed fawn birth time.

APRs put the pressure on the breeders.  The older more virile animals.  Studies have proven that leaving the breeding to yearlings is a big cause of spread out birthing dates.  They don't get the job done like the old studs do. 

If you want a naturally functioning deer herd, protecting the young at the expense of the mature isn't natural. In a herd that isn't hunted by humans, you will have mostly older mature deer. The young are the first to go in nature be it a bad winter or predators.  If you want lots of deer to kill, you take mostly young animals and very few of the breeders. You want just enough young to survive to replace the oldest deer that perish due to old age, predators and hunting. And you also take does to keep the male female ratio in check. You don't get more bucks in the long term by killing bucks and stockpiling does. You end up with a bunch of barren does that way. Or you spread out the birthing dates.

Deer herds fluctuate naturally depending on a variety of factors. Predators are just one of the factors, and so is hunting. Fires. bad winters. crowded ranges.  precipitation. and much more.  The big problem is hunter expectations. When hunting is good or great, many hunters expect it to be like that every year. It doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. There will be ups and downs. To think it will always be up is wishful thinking.  Think of the great years as a bonus, instead of expecting them every year.

Nature is never ending, and so should your learning be.  If you are stuck with knowledge from old studies and text books, you are in need of a tune up.  Book/study dependency should always be tempered with field experience, ongoing recent acknowledgment of natures changes, experience.  No one is 100% correct.

What we are saying, the few of us in north east units, is what we have witnessed for many years as the herd changes and fluctuates.  It may be that others dont see what we see as they arent here year round.  If you read the latest studies, you will find where whitetail are concerned, results of studies vary greatly.  We speak what we see, not what we read in past pull studies and old rhetoric.

[nwwanderer]

Yes, a little book learning can be dangerous, but my opinion comes from a life time of watching deer populations pretty much every day.  The genetic opinion part comes from a life time of selecting and breeding domestic animals.  Throw in natures randomness and it certainly gets muddy.

[hunter399]

This is what WDFW says about the 4pt.

District 1. Remember from 2011-2014, a 4-point minimum restriction was imposed for white-tailed deer in GMUs 117 and 121, which led to decreases in the overall harvest, hunter numbers, and hunter success. Available evidence shows this regulation change brought about these decreases and not a dramatic increase in the white-tailed deer population. With the retirement of the 4-point rule within GMUs 117 and 121, the deer harvest increased substantially in 2015 (Figure 4).

And it really pissed me off ,when you look at the numbers 2015 was the year 4pt min ended with the highest harvest .So I guess those Deer just dropped from the sky and the 4pt min didn't create a surplus of animals. The year it was dropped was the highest harvest ever .But it didn't help the populations at all.SUCH BS.
Honestly I really don't care if hunter numbers,harvest,Hunter success was lower .Conservation is not about how many tags you sell.Look at the harvest in 2014 all of that harvest was mature 4pt deer .I don't have 2018 or 2019 numbers handy but I can almost bet the bank it's a steady decrease and that's with shooting anything with a horn.I just don't like being lied too.If you wanna sell more tags just say so,but don't tell me it didn't create surplus animals.
Don't piss down my back and call it rain.
Rant over.

[Okanagan]

Their antlers at a young age dont determine their antlers at maturity, especially when many bucks are born late.  Thats established. 

Sorry, Bang, but  that's NOT established.  It is established in your mind and in at least one whitetail study, but NOT established among many long experienced hunters nor among the majority of researchers. We could be wrong, but I don't think so.  I think you know that I respect you greatly on most matters, but disagree on this one.

   Young age antlers are not the only determinate of antler size at maturity, but it is one of the only predictors we can actually see in the field.  Our eyes can see a spike, but cannot see his birthday, health of his mother, etc.

Carry on!

[Wsucoug]

Their antlers at a young age dont determine their antlers at maturity, especially when many bucks are born late.  Thats established. 

Sorry, Bang, but  that's NOT established.  It is established in your mind and in at least one whitetail study, but NOT established among many long experienced hunters nor among the majority of researchers. We could be wrong, but I don't think so.  I think you know that I respect you greatly on most matters, but disagree on this one.

   Young age antlers are not the only determinate of antler size at maturity, but it is one of the only predictors we can actually see in the field.  Our eyes can see a spike, but cannot see his birthday, health of his mother, etc.

Carry on!

I would love to read up on this research that supports this.

Can you post some links to some publications?

[Jonathan_S]

Their antlers at a young age dont determine their antlers at maturity, especially when many bucks are born late.  Thats established.  Besides, its not about antler / trophy potential anyway.  Aprs are about protecting the youngest, most vulnerable bucks to increase percentage of bucks in the herd, and the age class of bucks, resulting in a more healthy naturally functioning deer herd, a more intense rut, higher buck winter survival, and s higher fawn survival from a saturation effect of a more condensed fawn birth time.

APRs put the pressure on the breeders.  The older more virile animals.  Studies have proven that leaving the breeding to yearlings is a big cause of spread out birthing dates.  They don't get the job done like the old studs do. 

If you want a naturally functioning deer herd, protecting the young at the expense of the mature isn't natural. In a herd that isn't hunted by humans, you will have mostly older mature deer. The young are the first to go in nature be it a bad winter or predators.  If you want lots of deer to kill, you take mostly young animals and very few of the breeders. You want just enough young to survive to replace the oldest deer that perish due to old age, predators and hunting. And you also take does to keep the male female ratio in check. You don't get more bucks in the long term by killing bucks and stockpiling does. You end up with a bunch of barren does that way. Or you spread out the birthing dates.

Deer herds fluctuate naturally depending on a variety of factors. Predators are just one of the factors, and so is hunting. Fires. bad winters. crowded ranges.  precipitation. and much more.  The big problem is hunter expectations. When hunting is good or great, many hunters expect it to be like that every year. It doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. There will be ups and downs. To think it will always be up is wishful thinking.  Think of the great years as a bonus, instead of expecting them every year.

Nature is never ending, and so should your learning be.  If you are stuck with knowledge from old studies and text books, you are in need of a tune up.  Book/study dependency should always be tempered with field experience, ongoing recent acknowledgment of natures changes, experience.  No one is 100% correct.

What we are saying, the few of us in north east units, is what we have witnessed for many years as the herd changes and fluctuates.  It may be that others dont see what we see as they arent here year round.  If you read the latest studies, you will find where whitetail are concerned, results of studies vary greatly.  We speak what we see, not what we read in past pull studies and old rhetoric.

  and whitetail APRs pressuring "mature animals" significantly more is debatable. In the majority of cases our NE whitetail are breeding on their home range where they are most safe (unlike mule deer) and aren't going to suffer any serious losses regardless of APRs.

[hunter399]

Here is harvest reports from 2014 4pt min/2018 any buck
117 harvest is down lower than it was in 2014
121 harvest is about the same.
But with each of these harvest reports u have to remember the 4pt min was at or above current harvest with also leaving surplus animals for next hunting season .Which is what conservation is all about.If the 4pt min would of went longer the results might of been greater ,cause harvest was just starting to increase when it ended.I'm very curious to see 2019 harvest results ,i have a feeling it's going down the rabbit hole.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Are you forgetting the blue tongue infestation?

[Wsucoug]

Their antlers at a young age dont determine their antlers at maturity, especially when many bucks are born late.  Thats established.  Besides, its not about antler / trophy potential anyway.  Aprs are about protecting the youngest, most vulnerable bucks to increase percentage of bucks in the herd, and the age class of bucks, resulting in a more healthy naturally functioning deer herd, a more intense rut, higher buck winter survival, and s higher fawn survival from a saturation effect of a more condensed fawn birth time.

APRs put the pressure on the breeders.  The older more virile animals.  Studies have proven that leaving the breeding to yearlings is a big cause of spread out birthing dates.  They don't get the job done like the old studs do. 

If you want a naturally functioning deer herd, protecting the young at the expense of the mature isn't natural. In a herd that isn't hunted by humans, you will have mostly older mature deer. The young are the first to go in nature be it a bad winter or predators.  If you want lots of deer to kill, you take mostly young animals and very few of the breeders. You want just enough young to survive to replace the oldest deer that perish due to old age, predators and hunting. And you also take does to keep the male female ratio in check. You don't get more bucks in the long term by killing bucks and stockpiling does. You end up with a bunch of barren does that way. Or you spread out the birthing dates.

Deer herds fluctuate naturally depending on a variety of factors. Predators are just one of the factors, and so is hunting. Fires. bad winters. crowded ranges.  precipitation. and much more.  The big problem is hunter expectations. When hunting is good or great, many hunters expect it to be like that every year. It doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. There will be ups and downs. To think it will always be up is wishful thinking.  Think of the great years as a bonus, instead of expecting them every year.

Can you post one of these studies? I have been looking for them, but all I can find are opinions pieces. 

[nwwanderer]

Missouri extension has a fair amount of data, old and on going, Texas parks has printed a bunch from the Kerr wildlife area, and the Oak trust at Texas A&M is very active in whitetail study.  These states show billions of dollars in whitetail hunting value and are vastly different habitats than ours.  Maybe very general info is useful.  You will finding conflicting data from the same institutions, Mississippi State is a good example.  I know of no relevant studies in the PNW or south west Canada.

[Jonathan_S]

Are you forgetting the blue tongue infestation?

Still haven't recovered from that. Not even close where I'm at

[Bango skank]

Ill disagree all day that spikes are inherently genetically inferior, especially here where our piss poor buck to doe ratios results in a LOT of late bred does.

Regardless of that arguement about genetic potential, the fact is, protecting the 1.5 year old (dumbest, easiest to kill) bucks results in a higher buck to doe ratio, and after a few years also a better, more natural age distribution of bucks.  More mature bucks = more scrapes, rubs, daylight rut movement...  a better hunt.  It also results in more fawns being born at the same time, increasing fawn survival.  It also results in bucks not being as worn out come winter from rutting a month too long, so higher buck winter survival.  So even if im wrong about the genetic thing, aprs still promote a more naturally functioning herd, better buck winter survival, better fawn survival.  If that means the magazine cover genetics are mostly lost, i dont care.  Its whats best for the herd.  The asthetically pleasing "trophy genetics" are my least concern, i care about a more natural buck:doe ratio and a more natural age distribution of bucks.  Thats what makes a healthy naturally functioning herd and a better hunting experience.

And the argument i always see here about aprs putting additional pressure on mature bucks is a complete joke.  The guys fighting aprs are doing so because they cant stand the thought of letting a yearling walk.  Because thats all they feel theyre capable of killing.  The guys that insist they be allowed to kill baby bucks arent capable of killing mature bucks.  If a guy could kill mature bucks, he wouldnt get angry about having to hold out for a 2.5 yr old, which most are 4pt, and 2.5 is still far from mature, and still very easy to kill.

The anti apr guys will do whstever mental gymnastics neccessary to rationalize killing yearling deer, no amount of logic or evidence will ever change that.  As such, im out of the apr debate, ive said my peace.  Enjoy killing off the bulk of yearling bucks and messing up the herd dynamics.  God forbid you have to let a forkie walk.  The "participation trophy" thing seems strong in this debate.

If killing the peckerhead bucks was increasing trophy genetics by "culling" bad genetics, then every buck in the NE corner should be a booner by 2.5 yrs old now, cause every buck i see on a meatpole here during mf season is a little dink.  So if youre improving the genetics so much, how are you all finding peckerheads to kill year after year after year?  Shouldnt you all be finding yearling trophy bucks by now?

[Skyvalhunter]

Wow your on a roll.

[Bango skank]

Wow your on a roll.

Yeah well, what can i say?  Its a subject that i feel passionate about.  I care a lot more about promoting a healthy herd than i do about putting a notch in my belt every year.  Id rather eat my tag than contribute to the annual slaughter of stupid, helpless 1.5 yr old bucks.