First post - Intro and some questions

[PKC]

Hello!  I am in the process of purchasing a house in the southern portion of 407.  The lot is 20 acres and heavily forested for the most part.  It's been a goal to own huntable land and now after retiring from the Navy, I have my opportunity.  I am originally from Alaska and have been successful hunting moose but blacktail hunting will be new to me.  Some questions:

Do you think 20 acres in this area is enough to have realistic hopes of harvesting a deer every year?

I'm not a bowhunter...yet.  What are your favorite archery shops in the area? 

I've been reading the regulations...I'm sure I will have lots of questions about those.  Hopefully I can find someone to PM or talk to instead of clobbering the forum with dumb questions.

Thanks for reading.  I'm looking forward to hopefully becoming a contributing member!

[Oldguy]

What are you seeing in the way of deer or deer signs now?

[Stein]

Get friendly with your neighbors, I would say anchoring a deer with an arrow in 20 acres is not a high percentage chance especially since you will most likely not shoot it dead center in the property.  If the property is square, that's only 311 yards long, or a bit over 150 yards from the middle.

[Buckmark]

Get something to attract them and keep them interested all year, get out a few cameras so you know whats around and when, get a treestand and if your ok for guns a shotgun and slugs 
I am in 407 and have deer pretty much 24/7 365 around my place and can shoot if wanted to, but the deer are my wifes pets so they are safe from me, i drive 300 miles to kill other peoples deer 

[Stein]

Get something to attract them and keep them interested all year, get out a few cameras so you know whats around and when, get a treestand and if your ok for guns a shotgun and slugs 
I am in 407 and have deer pretty much 24/7 365 around my place and can shoot if wanted to, but the deer are my wifes pets so they are safe from me, i drive 300 miles to kill other peoples deer 

That's funny.  You should post and ad and do a house swap, cheap hunting and you can shoot each other's deer.

[Special T]

Depending on where you live in the 407...

Silver Arrow Bowmen in Mount Vernon has has 50 target walk through course. Join at the next business meeting and your membership will be good for the rest of this year and the next. $40 individuals $50 for families. 1st monday of each month 7pm

Riverside Archery is a great shop and big supporter of the club. You wont be sorry.

Knock point in Mt lake terrace is another good pro shop.

Search out the book Byod Iversons Blacktail Trophy Tactics 2. Its out of print as is the previous print. Many view it as the best book on BT hunting.

BT dont take to bait like other deer but some kinds of feed will keep them coming to your place. You might have enough land to put in some things they love to eat.

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[PKC]

Appreciate the replies!  I haven't spent much time on the property yet - supposed to finalize the deal next week.  I have seen fresh BT poo and an old pile of bear scat.  I bought 3 trail cams - using cams will be a first for me too.  Can't wait to see what I see...even if it is a bunch of raccoons or coyotes.  I didn't see any fruit trees, so I want to plant a couple.

Talking to the neighbors is a good idea and I've already started researching who owns the property around me.

You might be on to something Stein!

[Fl0und3rz]

Thank you for your service.

[lokidog]

Plant apple trees ASAP, don't put it off. The best time to plant an apple tree is ten years ago. 

[Russ McDonald]

Plant apple trees ASAP, don't put it off. The best time to plant an apple tree is ten years ago. 

He is right they do love apples.  I know that first hand 

[PKC]

Update - We moved in just under a month ago.  The house was originally built in 1923 so I keep busy with projects.  My next major project is to plumb the unfinished (dirt floor) basement for a bathroom and then pour a floor.  If there are any plumbers on here looking for additional work, please let me know!

We have seen deer, coyotes, and a bobcat on the property.  I've got 2-3 different bucks on trail cam but the biggest is a forkie.  WAY too many coyotes.  Also found a trespasser's deer feeding station...and his thanksgiving turkey carcass placed 80 yards into my property. 

Doesn't look like there will be any hunting for me this year with how busy I've been around the house after work and on the weekends.  But that's ok for now - I'll eat venison next fall.

[birdshooter1189]

Thanks for sharing the update.  Do you plan to hunt the coyotes on your place? 

If you want to hunt them yourself, i'm happy to share some ideas that are working for me (I've taken 17 coyotes at my place this year)

If you don't want to hunt them yourself, you could probably find volunteers on here to help thin the pack(s).


If you haven't already, I'd put one of your game cameras on that turkey carcass, or move the carcass to one of your cams.

[OutHouse]

Get a metal detector in that basement before you floor it. Who knows what you will find. I grew up in a house built in 1912 and found tons of cool stuff in the ground.

[Bareback]

Congrats on your new homestead.

As previously mentioned plant trees asap. You will have to bear proof them. Unfortunately a bear will take down the whole tree for a few apples.

Research your trees and rootstocks. I would suggest an early ripening apple like a Translucent (august), Red Gravenstein, Wynooche Early or Akane. The later three are September harvesters. The earlier ripening trees will get the deer to frequent the property well before the season.

Look for an M111 rootstock, it will produce an 80% tree with self supporting roots that is highly disease resistant and drought tolerant. The dwarfing varieties (m27, Bud9) are a bit more temperamental to soil types and conditions and require supporting for life.  The advantage of dwarf rootstock is it creates precocious tree where a M111 takes a bit longer to bear fruit. The ideal tree would be an M111 rootstock with a Bud9 interstem. You’ll get the best of both worlds but they are tough to find and are bit more spendy.

Your going to be busy👍

[KFhunter]

Bait is the best way to get coyotes, from there you can get pretty creative in maximizing your kills.

I wouldn't even worry about calling on 20 acres.  I took a few calling, but it shut down after a few yotes the I went to baiting

Haven't seen a yote for long time, no tracks nothing.

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[HikerHunter]

Well, I was just going to say to plant a few varieties so they are dropping apples throughout the late summer and fall, but barebuck went into a lot better detail than I could

[KFhunter]

Well, I was just going to say to plant a few varieties so they are dropping apples throughout the late summer and fall, but barebuck went into a lot better detail than I could

Ya, he's my new apple goto guy lol

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[PKC]

Get a metal detector in that basement before you floor it. Who knows what you will find. I grew up in a house built in 1912 and found tons of cool stuff in the ground.

Great idea!

I would like to take out the coyotes myself.  I'll take any tips you got, birdshooter.

Thanks for that info Barebuck!  I had no idea there were so many options.  What do you mean about a M111 making an 80% tree?

[Bareback]

One of the attributes of rootstock is that it determines tree height. 80% would produce a tree about 20 ft tall at full maturity. With deer around you must consider them eating the leaves, I’ve found the dwarfed trees don’t hold up as well since they never grow above the deer’s browsing height. Contact me when it’s time to plant. I’ll put you in the right direction.

[birdshooter1189]

Like KFhunter said, bait is key. 

If possible, find a window of your house that faces where coyotes come through and you can shoot.  Take the screen out and oil/grease the window so it opens easily and quietly.

Pick your shooting lane, clear brush and build dirtpile/backstop if necessary for your location.

Put bait where you want the coyotes to stand for the shot.  Baits that I have used that works well are: crumbled old smoked salmon, cans of soft cat food, cat hard food, thanksgiving turkey carcass, crumbled up costco rotisserie chicken(I bought a couple rotisserie chickens($6 at costco), crumbled/diced the entire thing, filled plastic sandwich bags with it, about 2/3 cup worth in each bag, then freeze bags. Pull them out as needed to keep fresh scented bait on the bait pile). Bait that is crumbled and scattered will keep the animal at the location. A single large chunk of bait may be grabbed and carried away.

Get a set of driveway alarms. Cheap ones are about $15 each and work ok for close range.  A long range set with multiple alarms is 10X better.  I have the set in the link below. IMO they are worth every penny.  Each alarm rings a different chime on the base unit.  Put one alarm directly on the bait pile.  Put the other alarms on the paths where coyotes will likely approach the bait pile.  If you put two alarms on the same trail spaced by about 50-100', then at 2am or whenever the alarms go off, you know which direction the animal is moving based on which alarm goes off first.  If you buy two of these kits you can have 8 sensors each with their own chime/tune.

https://www.amazon.com/Driveway-Wireless-Rechargeable-Weatherproof-4-Camouflage/dp/B07ZT75T8L/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=wuloo+alarm&qid=1606932532&sr=8-13

90% of the coyotes will likely come through at night.

Option 1: get a flashlight on your rifle.

Option 2: Wire up an outdoor spotlight to a lightswitch next to the shooting window.

Option 3: nightvision/thermal.  I have used the cheap night vision kits below.  They work pretty well for shots between 30-100yds. I have two infrared lights attached to mine which gives better clarity at 100 yds.  A single small IR light like what comes with the kit works fine for up to about 60 yds.  Note that some scopes have IR blocking coatings, so this setup works better with some scopes than others.

https://www.amazon.com/BESTSIGHT-Digital-riflescopes-Portable-Display/dp/B06XJ1M846/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=night+vision+scope+kit&qid=1606932834&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVDQ1TTJKR0Q5OEZNJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjMxMDkzMkg1OFdGVFdBS1RTMyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDQ4MDM1MlpOWjYzRjRFQjRQRCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

[KFhunter]

An IR flood at the bait site works very well.

This one is 12v but came with a 120v adapter too.

The biggest isdue with IR is if your trying to see through brush or trees they'll "bloom" really bad and you won't see anything, so a clear unobstructed view to the bait is important.

Otherwise I've done everything just like the post above, even to the lubed window lol

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[KFhunter]

I haven't had to really use that spotlight, as I got an expensive coyote light that came with an IR led I can swap out.

I've got this odepro kit, and its worked very well.  It punched my range way out in optimal conditions. I really like the odepro, reccomend it.

Coyotes shy'd away from the white, but after 45 minutes of constant shining on them they finally came into the hog bait I had out.

But then I got the IR scope and swapped the light bulb the the IR one and they dont shy away from it. 

They were hung up 500 yards out for that 45 minutes on the white, then shot at 30 when they came up to my dog barking in the yard. Then more were shot off the bait, I think a double that night.

I've gotten triples on the IR

One of these days I'd love a high dollar thermal.

[birdshooter1189]

I haven't tried the IR floodlight.  I looked for something like that once and couldn't find what I was looking for. Thanks for posting the link.  I'm in a spot where there's lots of trees and brush that sometimes lights up bright and washes out what I'm trying to see in the darker distance.

I suspect that with a light like that right on the bait, i could sit back with the cheap nightvision kit and potentially make 300yd+ shots.

[Buckmark]

Note: If you put out bait like what is listed get ready to have every raccoon in the neighborhood on your property 
Lots of trash pandas in 407

[LDennis24]

Get something to attract them and keep them interested all year, get out a few cameras so you know whats around and when, get a treestand and if your ok for guns a shotgun and slugs 
I am in 407 and have deer pretty much 24/7 365 around my place and can shoot if wanted to, but the deer are my wifes pets so they are safe from me, i drive 300 miles to kill other peoples deer 

I love posts like this! There's a guy by us that you can't even stop to look at the deer or he will flip out and chase you down like he owns them! Lol!

[KFhunter]

I haven't tried the IR floodlight.  I looked for something like that once and couldn't find what I was looking for. Thanks for posting the link.  I'm in a spot where there's lots of trees and brush that sometimes lights up bright and washes out what I'm trying to see in the darker distance.

I suspect that with a light like that right on the bait, i could sit back with the cheap nightvision kit and potentially make 300yd+ shots.

Ya, puts the bloom in the back.

You'll have to play with the distance, right on top of the bait will bloom everything very bright, but you could set it to shine from different angles and set it a ways off.

I haven't played with it a lot, I'm pretty open here and the odepro ir flashlight is plenty.



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[nwwanderer]

Will need to protect those new trees, deer candy.   Sounds like your 20 will produce, good luck

[fishnfur]

Sounds like a really fun multi-year project.  Time to loose those sea legs and settle in.  My thoughts on multiple ideas:

1.  Killing 'yotes is fun and makes you feel like you're protecting the herd by diminishing their population.  Sadly, numerous scientific studies all showed that predator control on Coyotes has no real effect on the population.  You may keep them away from your property, but you're not going to make a dent in the numbers.  Google it.

2.  Love the apple tree ideas - great input on rootstock - way beyond my paygrade.  I would recommend at least three trees, one that starts dropping apples in late July or early August, one that ripens in September, and the final one that doesn't drop apples till mid to late October.  This will keep deer coming in late summer to mid-fall, and during the best days of the season.  Persimmon is another tree to investigate.  There are varieties that do every well in the PNW and ripen and produce heavy crops in Oct - Nov, which will bring in a lot of deer once established.  Whatever tree you plant, they need direct sunlight 6+ hours a day to be productive.  Sun all day is better. Shade is no good.

3.  Assessing the neighborhood around your property will might give you a clue as to what might bring in deer or keep them there.  Deer require:  Food, cover (both hiding and thermal), and water, the later of which is not typically an issue in W. WA.  Ignoring the water item, doing projects on your property that increase light to the forest floor or into meadows or cultivated land allows more food to grow and is an obvious attractant.  Thinning forests or patches of forest quickly increases the food growing there.
    Forested bedding areas and brush that provides for deer escapement are necessary if you want to keep them on the property.   Leaving brush patches and brushy corridors make the deer feel safe to move and feed close to a brushy edge.  Thermal cover protects and keeps them alive when it is cold/rainy/snowy or super hot outside.  Knowing all that and looking at the neighboring properties, if you see substantial amounts of cover (and water??) for deer to hide/bed, then you should aim at providing a great food source to attract deer on to your property to feed.  Alternatively, if the neighbors all have full sun parcels or mixed brush and mixed timber, then perhaps you should concentrate on creating good bedding areas where deer will come and go from in the mornings and evenings.

IMO - 20 acres is plenty for at least a few deer to call home.  I've got a 10 acre piece of reprod that has a lot of deer coming and going throughout every year (though it sucked this year  ).  You only need a few doe on property to have bucks coming in to your hunting area during the rut.  I would say that 20 acres in most areas might have an average of three doe living there if all the other requirements are met and there is not an insurmountable predator problem.  It doesn't really matter where the bucks live if you have doe.  If you build it, they will come!

Thanks for your service.  Congrats on your retirement.  Been there, done that.

[KFhunter]

You can keep yotes off a property, I did it and continue to.

Now I'm seeing high % fawn recruitment, resident does almost all have yearlings in tow, its nice to see when a few years ago there was none.  I heard a few fawns get taken sleeping with a window open, so I went to work.


It is paying off.

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[HikerHunter]

I thought I remember reading that you can do good for fawn recruitment by knocking back coyote numbers in the spring/early summer, but over time their populations will bounce back. That would help reach the goal of fawn survival if that's what you want.

[Stein]

I read an article once that talked about coyotes and how they have been incredibly resistant to extirpation despite human's best efforts.  We have been able to get rid of bison, wolves, elk, and whatever else we have tried (or did accidentally), but despite shooting, trapping, poison and whatever else, we have never been able to get rid of coyotes.  It was a pretty interesting perspective and something I had never thought about before reading it.

I'm sure you can do it on a very local level, but they are a pretty unique animal and a real survivor.

[PKC]

You all are a wealth of information!  I appreciate the coyote tactics birdshooter and KFhunter.  Sounds like you guys have it dialed in.

I've also read and listened to people talk about the affects of coyote population control.  I think it was Steve Rinella who talked about the people who love having coyotes around should be very pro hunting - it creates more of them.

Thanks for your service also fishnfur.  The full sun for 6+ hours for apple trees will be difficult to achieve where I'm at - I didn't think of that until you mentioned it.