STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS

[NOCK NOCK]

At 7 years old I was on my first "hunt" with my Dad and Brother. Dad killed a doe and I was crying and afraid to look at it (blood yuk) 
2 years later  I killed my 1st deer, a doe. I was hooked from that moment on. I have killed a deer in WA state every year since, mostly bucks, but 10-12 does too.

To those who say does are not a true "hunt"  So you must feel that human woman are inferior too? 

I have killed 50-52 deer in Wa state, and of all those, the most memorable one was a doe that I killed in Swakane during an archery hunt. Spotting, plotting, sneaking, waiting, positioning, shooting.......yep it was hunting, just didnt have protruding bone on its head.

[metlhead]

I think taking of does may hinder the mulie population to a small extent. I also feel the black/whitetail poulations are not affected by it. There is an abundance of deer that use my property. We eat deer every single year, never a buck, and I've not noticed any less critters. As much as we may not care for WDFWs reasoning, they do have the biologists. Kill too many bucks or reduce opportunity in an overpeoplated state.

[Alchase]

To those who say does are not a true "hunt"  So you must feel that human woman are inferior too? 

If you take into context where and how you are hunting, yes I can see how a doe could be a decent hunt. 

I hunted the Methow for 30+ years until 2015. I had does walk into my tent. Walk up to me while I was smoking a cigarette. walk through camp while sitting at the campfire listening to book on CD. Not once can ever remember a year, where I could not have taken a doe there with very little effort, and most times within a couple hundred feet of camp.

That is not a hunt to me, that is getting groceries, 

[Surfr716]

i dont think the issue is shooting does, honestly i think the winter range would be better served by doing so. wdfw list population goal at 20 bucks per every 100 does, so 1-5. i honestly dont believe were even in the ball park, more like  1-10 or 1-12. im not saying open doe hunting as a regular season opportunity but i dont have any issue with doing it for youth or on a more consistent draw basis. this may be my own bias talking coming from texas where game populations are properly maintained but i think washington has done an awful job with regards to fish and wildlife.

as for the ethical dilemma with regards to shooting slickheads it doesnt exist in my mind, your milage may vary.

[jackelope]

Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.

[Mudman]

My opinion on "hunting" is 2 types, bagging a trophy and or getting groceries/food you enjoy.  Both are equal in my mind.  I am more of a food hunter.  Most are about size and horns.  I dont feel either are superior.  Does are important.  BUT management is key for obvious reasons.

[NOCK NOCK]

Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.

According to KF they do,  Heck prolly cover 40-50 over a 50 mile range. (insert sarcasm emoji)

[KFhunter]

Don't put words in my mouth, I never said any such thing.

[KFhunter]

Bucks don’t cover 12 does in a year.
What are the non productive does doing all year long?
I’m not a rancher but I know what happens to non-productive cows on a cattle ranch.

*if* habitat were a factor they'd be robbing the producing does of prime feed, and need culled. 

But hunters can't tell the difference on doe hunts,  and habitat ain't a limitating factor in most areas.   

Barren does are often dominant and lead migrations and movements, they're an extra set of eyes for predators. 

[boneaddict]

You talking whities here or muleys.  Big difference!   A Muley buck can get a harem with up to 50 doe in it and he will try to breed everyone, and he does migrate, where as a whities breeding behavior is completely different and may only service a few doe, even if large and dominant, plus their migrations tend to be way less or not at all. So I will drop the 50 bomb.

[KFhunter]

I don't know either, but he mocked me with 50 so I assumed whitetail, otherwise why mock me   

[NOCK NOCK]

Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does

So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth.  Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does. 

Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.

The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them.  My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.

It's maff man 

Ok

start with 1000 doe in an area and 200 bucks, a 5:1 ratio before hunting season

a whopping 180 bucks get shot!   Now we got 1000 does and 20 bucks   wow, 80:1 ratio   not good!

add in natural mortality, make it 10% for easy maff, it doesn't matter what the real % is because more does will die than bucks in a pretty static ratio.   
Now we got 800 does and *gasp*  18 bucks!     90:1 ratio!

now it's birthing season,  800 does drop a 50/50 mix of does and bucks, how many does did or didn't get bred doesn't matter, they'll have a close to 50/50 mix of sexes

now add in fawn recruitment, it doesn't matter for sex ratio what the recruitment is because buck and doe fawn will die in equal ratio's.  There's no difference to a predator or other all cause mortality.   800 does put out  200 new does and 200 new bucks in a very high 50% mortality rate. 

Now we got 1000 does again and 218 bucks

The ratio has improved from 5:1 to 4 something to 1



sex ratios are self correcting,  it has nothing to do with herd decline or growth, the buck doe ratio can't really ever get more than about 5:1

This self correction happens year over year

If you want more deer, don't kill the baby makers. 

If you want less deer, let the predators kill more fawns, and hunt does

800/8 = 44.444444

[NOCK NOCK]

Fawns are tough to see in fields, I know as I've run em over with haying equipment.  I hope your not looking at does in tbe fields during summer months and tbinking their barren 

All tbe does get covered by bucks, when the buck to doe ratio is way akimbo does and cows might get a 2nd estrus, the problem with this is it spreads out the fawn or calf drop, which in turns lengthens the vulnerable duration and ends up with more eaten by predators, there is safty in numbers

Also, older prime bucks and bulls are far more efficient at breeding, their fawn and calves survive better cause they drop together, so this lends a sound argument for 4 pt min restrictions.

[NOCK NOCK]

Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does

So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth. Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does. 

Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.

[NOCK NOCK]

I don't know either, but he mocked me with 50 so I assumed whitetail, otherwise why mock me   

WOW! 

Does the above refresh your memory??

Yes, LITTERALLY you did not say it, I apologize, but geez you basically said it multiple times 

I would suggest as a mod, you should be able to understand (insert sarcasm emoji here) and also be able to not get your panties in a bunch over an opposing view.

And we all wonder why folks are posting less and less (especially pics)