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Author Topic: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS  (Read 34186 times)

Offline borntoslay

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #270 on: October 22, 2022, 09:48:26 AM »
I'm convinced mother nature, in the form of hard winters and blue tongue or other diseases has the largest impact on ungulate herd numbers. In a single month our herds can go from robust to dismal. Humans certainly can have big impacts via hunting, auto collisions, land use, letting dogs run loose, etc., but human impacts are nothing like the hard courses of nature!

You can look at all the cities and towns that have deer infestations, farmer fields full of deer and elk, oilfields with trophy elk and deer, and it shows humans can be compatible with ungulates. Consistently through the years my best hunting is mostly on leased ranch lands that are heavily grazed by cattle and sheep. One of my best elk hunts and also a good deer hunt is also one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the west. Yet I can go into excellent winter range areas in northeast WA that used to be full of deer in late winter and its hard to find any deer, further proof that winter range is not the most limiting factor.

With all of that said, if you talk to most biologists in hunting oriented states (not Washington) they will tell you that antlerless hunting is used to regulate herd size. Because many Washington herds are probably at or near all time lows I have to say at this time I somewhat agree with boneaddict because every doe in these areas is needed for fawning.

Here's where I have to disagree, once the WDFW sets a season and includes xxx doe permits in an area, I don't blame anyone for applying for the permit, if they don't get it someone else will? Like many other hunters I like to eat wild game, I put in for lots of antlerless tags through the years and will continue to do so. Perhaps if hunters could all agree to all throw away doe tags in areas with low deer or elk numbers that could make a difference, honestly I don't think that would ever happen.

It's going to be a very slow deer recovery this time due to the unprecedented predator footprint in Washington, I doubt herds will ever reach the numbers they once were, with so many predators that mathematically seems impossible.  :twocents:
Blue tongue definitely hit the blues foothills hard last year. Normally see tons of whitetails saw 2 does last year. Saw around 20 this year and 1 small buck so thats promising. They will come back but will take time. Muleys seem to be doing OK  though

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Offline browney5er

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #271 on: October 22, 2022, 09:52:14 AM »
I'm convinced mother nature, in the form of hard winters and blue tongue or other diseases has the largest impact on ungulate herd numbers. In a single month our herds can go from robust to dismal. Humans certainly can have big impacts via hunting, auto collisions, land use, letting dogs run loose, etc., but human impacts are nothing like the hard courses of nature!

You can look at all the cities and towns that have deer infestations, farmer fields full of deer and elk, oilfields with trophy elk and deer, and it shows humans can be compatible with ungulates. Consistently through the years my best hunting is mostly on leased ranch lands that are heavily grazed by cattle and sheep. One of my best elk hunts and also a good deer hunt is also one of the most productive oil and gas fields in the west. Yet I can go into excellent winter range areas in northeast WA that used to be full of deer in late winter and its hard to find any deer, further proof that winter range is not the most limiting factor.

With all of that said, if you talk to most biologists in hunting oriented states (not Washington) they will tell you that antlerless hunting is used to regulate herd size. Because many Washington herds are probably at or near all time lows I have to say at this time I somewhat agree with boneaddict because every doe in these areas is needed for fawning.

Here's where I have to disagree, once the WDFW sets a season and includes xxx doe permits in an area, I don't blame anyone for applying for the permit, if they don't get it someone else will? Like many other hunters I like to eat wild game, I put in for lots of antlerless tags through the years and will continue to do so. Perhaps if hunters could all agree to all throw away doe tags in areas with low deer or elk numbers that could make a difference, honestly I don't think that would ever happen.

It's going to be a very slow deer recovery this time due to the unprecedented predator footprint in Washington, I doubt herds will ever reach the numbers they once were, with so many predators that mathematically seems impossible.  :twocents:




Amen
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Offline jackelope

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STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #272 on: October 22, 2022, 10:16:33 AM »
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does

So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth.  Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does. 

Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.

The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them.  My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Online hunter399

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #273 on: October 22, 2022, 11:06:58 AM »
It's not so much about how many doe can a buck breed.

Can that buck move freely through the hunting pressure to breed doe.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #274 on: October 22, 2022, 11:16:11 AM »
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does

So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth.  Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does. 

Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.

The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them.  My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.

It's maff man  :chuckle:

Offline boneaddict

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #275 on: October 22, 2022, 11:30:38 AM »
Quote
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I imagine it would especially with a cow tag in your pocket.    Honestly wasn’t considering elk.    They seem to be doing surprisingly well wherever I go. Idahunters point plays an important role with this.    I was mostly focused on deer and Oil.    I do know they are having recruitment issues due to predators for elk in some zones.   I’d imagine the concept of not shooting momma is realistic a bit since they spend so much time and energy for folks not to shoot nanny’s versus Billy’s.
Anyhow to answer your questions

I’m not sure in the whitetail units or Muley units there is a 1:5 ratio anywhere.
I assume one doe breeds with one buck.  not so for sheep, I filmed 10 different rams breed a ewe. 
healthy buck to doe management is as you stated 1:5.   Or at least what management goal is.  Some scientists say 1:1 is healthy, and 1:10 is acceptable.   
Anecdotally I think the ratio is closer to 1:10

Whereas managing to a desired buck to doe ratio, I don’t think the factor should be at this point with an overall population at a 20+ year low give or take one year, to shoot more does to make ratio.   

I’m curious what the experts think with cWD on the forfront if they want manage for more deer to account forexpected  losses, or fewer deer to stall spread.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #276 on: October 22, 2022, 11:31:24 AM »
Well, it's kind of impossible to get more than about a 5:1 buck doe ratio, and one buck can cover more than 5 does

So I think doe's not getting covered is a myth.  Unless they're barren or had a male twin, and I doubt there's a whole lot of barren does. 

Some just loose their fawns immediately year after year because a bear (typically) or other predator has their birthing location pegged and get them every year not long after it's dropped.

The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I’ll add that I’ve never killed a doe in Washington, I’ve also never applied for a doe tag and probably never will. I did draw a cow elk tag this year but I didn’t fill it because of my own stupid rookie amateur hour mistake. I’m not sure if I’ll apply for cow tags again. I’m not sold on them.  My point in this is that I’m not a fan of killing baby makers personally, but I also don’t think a blanket bomb “don’t do it” mentality is right either. There’s a time and a place. I know the s word(science) has been frowned upon recently, but there’s some science to this.

It's maff man  :chuckle:

Ok

start with 1000 doe in an area and 200 bucks, a 5:1 ratio before hunting season

a whopping 180 bucks get shot!   Now we got 1000 does and 20 bucks   wow, 80:1 ratio   not good!

add in natural mortality, make it 10% for easy maff, it doesn't matter what the real % is because more does will die than bucks in a pretty static ratio.   
Now we got 800 does and *gasp*  18 bucks!     90:1 ratio!

now it's birthing season,  800 does drop a 50/50 mix of does and bucks, how many does did or didn't get bred doesn't matter, they'll have a close to 50/50 mix of sexes

now add in fawn recruitment, it doesn't matter for sex ratio what the recruitment is because buck and doe fawn will die in equal ratio's.  There's no difference to a predator or other all cause mortality.   800 does put out  200 new does and 200 new bucks in a very high 50% mortality rate. 

Now we got 1000 does again and 218 bucks

The ratio has improved from 5:1 to 4 something to 1



sex ratios are self correcting,  it has nothing to do with herd decline or growth, the buck doe ratio can't really ever get more than about 5:1

This self correction happens year over year

If you want more deer, don't kill the baby makers. 

If you want less deer, let the predators kill more fawns, and hunt does 


Offline KFhunter

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #277 on: October 22, 2022, 11:44:26 AM »
If you added even 10 or 20 does per year to my maff above that got hunted, you'll see the population go down substantially in 5 years

It's a snowball effect

« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 11:53:01 AM by KFhunter »

Offline KFhunter

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2022, 11:58:31 AM »
Quote
The blanket bomb statements are what gets me.

Where’s it impossible to get the 5:1 doe:buck ratio?

How many bucks will a doe cover in a year?

What’s a healthy buck:doe ratio?

What is the ratio in, let’s say, NE WA?

I imagine it would especially with a cow tag in your pocket.    Honestly wasn’t considering elk.    They seem to be doing surprisingly well wherever I go. Idahunters point plays an important role with this.    I was mostly focused on deer and Oil.    I do know they are having recruitment issues due to predators for elk in some zones.   I’d imagine the concept of not shooting momma is realistic a bit since they spend so much time and energy for folks not to shoot nanny’s versus Billy’s.
Anyhow to answer your questions

I’m not sure in the whitetail units or Muley units there is a 1:5 ratio anywhere.
I assume one doe breeds with one buck.  not so for sheep, I filmed 10 different rams breed a ewe. 
healthy buck to doe management is as you stated 1:5.   Or at least what management goal is.  Some scientists say 1:1 is healthy, and 1:10 is acceptable.   
Anecdotally I think the ratio is closer to 1:10

Whereas managing to a desired buck to doe ratio, I don’t think the factor should be at this point with an overall population at a 20+ year low give or take one year, to shoot more does to make ratio.   

I’m curious what the experts think with cWD on the forfront if they want manage for more deer to account forexpected  losses, or fewer deer to stall spread.

less deer and less baiting stalls cwd, but that's not the goal, but the solution fits the goal, so a useful tool
 
less deer regulates predators in the long run, but creates chaos in getting there

wolves move to livestock, makes those operations less profitable = less cattle on public lands and private

already sheep herder and timber co agreements have failed   =  more spraying noxious weeds

declining ungulates = less success, less hunters, less opportunities and eventually end of hunting

this is a long term plan that may take generations to complete, but they've identified steps and are following a blueprint called "rewilding America" 




Offline boneaddict

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2022, 12:05:27 PM »
I suppose taking horseman out of the wilderness and adding grizz bears is just another piece to that.

Offline jackelope

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STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #280 on: October 22, 2022, 12:38:48 PM »
If you added even 10 or 20 does per year to my maff above that got hunted, you'll see the population go down substantially in 5 years

It's a snowball effect

Doesn’t happen in the whitetail QDMA world, which is realistically where most of this sort of science really happens. It would be interesting to hear a pro’s take on this, specific to mule deer.

If you do enough looking around online at studies and such, it seems to support shooting does but again, most of that is probably in the Midwest whitetail woods.
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

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Offline KFhunter

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #281 on: October 22, 2022, 12:51:16 PM »
QDMA is largely focused on non-stressed herds east of us, in our stressed herds that are in decline or barely holding static taking does out is a cumulative snowball effect.


Offline boneaddict

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #282 on: October 22, 2022, 01:06:20 PM »
If only we were at a place where we could each harvest 7 does a season.  We wouldn’t be having this conversation. 

Offline jackelope

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #283 on: October 22, 2022, 01:31:46 PM »
I applied for a ewe tag this year on Clemens.  First time. Why? Because they’re going to kill that herd so why not? Is that ok?
:fire.:

" In today's instant gratification society, more and more pressure revolves around success and the measurement of one's prowess as a hunter by inches on a score chart or field photos produced on social media. Don't fall into the trap. Hunting is-and always will be- about the hunt, the adventure, the views, and time spent with close friends and family. " Ryan Hatfield

My posts, opinions and statements do not represent those of this forum

Offline Bob33

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Re: STOP KILLING THE BABY MAKERS
« Reply #284 on: October 22, 2022, 01:45:03 PM »
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

 


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