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Author Topic: Wolves eating all our deer  (Read 170366 times)

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #315 on: June 09, 2009, 01:24:04 PM »
Representatives of conservation groups, cattlemen and loggers are on the working group, but sportsmen can be particularly proud to be represented by Tommy Petrie, a serious and successful elk hunter and president of the Pend Oreille County Sportsmen's Club.

"Before starting, I read six wildlife biology-type books to try to educate myself beyond what I already know from hunting archery seasons in Idaho where wolves have been established for a long time," he said, noting that he has catalogued more than 400 books in his personal hunting and wildlife library.

Petrie also has documented wolves in Pend Oreille County with photos and by snowshoeing into areas where he's found their tracks and kills.

"I'm not making excuses for wolves – they're not out there eating Alpo – but there's no evidence that they would devastate big-game populations," he said.


So do any of you know this guy? Pay check must be a dandy.

http://www.saveelk.com
http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k6/waha338/?action=view&current=TheKillingSportbyRWalters.flv
http://www.mtmultipleuse.org/endangered/wolf_pics.htm
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2009/0 … dont-bite/
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/printerFriendly.cfm?brd=2264&dept_id=505965&newsid=17108302
http://www.prosts.com/Documentary-Undue-Burden.htm
http://rliv.com/wolf/09NFpred.pdf

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #316 on: June 10, 2009, 05:54:23 PM »
For those of you who like to run hounds, thisngs are not looking up. Wolves killing hounds.

This is a really sad story........................

Close encounter raises concerns about wolves
By Scott Richards - For the Idaho Press-Tribune

For as long as I can remember, when you were in the mountains for any reason, a dog by your side was a great defense to warn you of predators. I used to believe in this. But now a dog is nothing more than bait to lure wolves.
Recently, while cougar hunting, an associate of mine, who is a licensed guide like myself, had a wolf encounter. He was cougar hunting with a dog on a leash when three wolves charged up on him. With waving arms and a screaming voice, he was able to persuade them to leave, but what if they had been a little hungrier? Your natural instinct will be to defend your companion. I am not saying you should leave your friend at home, but be prepared.
Put a bell or a beeper on him or her so you know where they are at all times.
The most important thing, in my opinion, is to pack a firearm. I personally believe pepper spray will not work in
a pack attack. Keep your dogs quiet when you are walking — no barking. If they are tied up in camp, no barking. And don’t let your children play with your pets and have them barking while they’re playing.
My personal belief is that the war has been lost. It’s too late to save our big-game herds in my lifetime.
What I have loved to do for most of my life is over, so enjoy it while you still can. Be prepared. I pray you never encounter a pack of Canadian gray wolves.
 
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1558821

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #317 on: June 12, 2009, 07:26:36 AM »

So do any of you know this guy? Pay check must be a dandy.


I do know him and what he is saying is true.  He actually has facts to show his truthfulness.  You, on the other hand, have not provided us with a fact yet, just a bunch of redneck sensationalism.  I think I remember you promising me some evidence of your claims; I'm still waiting patiently.    waiting...... 

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #318 on: June 12, 2009, 07:40:48 AM »

So do any of you know this guy? Pay check must be a dandy.


I do know him and what he is saying is true.  He actually has facts to show his truthfulness.  You, on the other hand, have not provided us with a fact yet, just a bunch of redneck sensationalism.  I think I remember you promising me some evidence of your claims; I'm still waiting patiently.    waiting...... 

when this fellow says he doesn't see where these wolves have devastated big game, I winder just where he has done his research.

  So do any of you know this guy? Pay check must be a dandy.

http://www.saveelk.com
http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k6/waha338/?action=view&current=TheKillingSportbyRWalters.flv
http://www.mtmultipleuse.org/endangered/wolf_pics.htm
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2009/0 … dont-bite/
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/printerFriendly.cfm?brd=2264&dept_id=505965&newsid=17108302
http://www.prosts.com/Documentary-Undue-Burden.htm
http://rliv.com/wolf/09NFpred.pdf


And you have a wonderfull day MR. Wacoyotehunter

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #319 on: June 12, 2009, 08:05:47 AM »
He spends more time in the woods than anyone I know.  I think mostly in NE Washington.  There have been wolves here for a long time and they have not devastated the big game.  How can you explain that, other than by saying it's possible that wolves are not going to devastate the big game... it seems intuitive. 
Hunting success is down in ID and in places the elk #'s a lower, but if a person knows where to go and how to hunt they can be quite successful.  The elk are there- they're just lay low a little better now. 

Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #320 on: June 12, 2009, 10:58:13 AM »
Well I hope you have a great spot, and whatever you do don't tell anyone else about it. You wouldn't want that secret out. GOOD LUCk n GOOD HUNTIN   ;) :rolleyes::chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :yike:

Offline WAcoyotehunter

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #321 on: June 12, 2009, 11:50:50 AM »
Well unfortunately my great spot is not a secret...everyone in PO county knows about it....but it's not bad considering. 

Offline denali

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #322 on: June 14, 2009, 09:02:43 AM »
http://wolfcrossing.org/2009/06/10/forest-service-oks-grazing-near-wolves/

priority 1 in the methow valley, wolves   ranchers and outdoorsman  are way down the list.
Honesty is the best policy,  but insanity is a better defense.

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #323 on: June 14, 2009, 03:08:39 PM »
Quote
He spends more time in the woods than anyone I know.  I think mostly in NE Washington.  There have been wolves here for a long time and they have not devastated the big game.  How can you explain that, other than by saying it's possible that wolves are not going to devastate the big game... it seems intuitive.]He spends more time in the woods than anyone I know.  I think mostly in NE Washington.  There have been wolves here for a long time and they have not devastated the big game.  How can you explain that, other than by saying it's possible that wolves are not going to devastate the big game... it seems intuitive.


I also happen to spend a fair amount of time in the woods here in all three NE counties. I agree that some wolves have been here for a long time, but they were before the canadian transplants and they were not as big or near as quick at reproducing as the Canadian Grey's which were transplanted in Idaho.

Quote
I do know him and what he is saying is true.  He actually has facts to show his truthfulness.  You, on the other hand, have not provided us with a fact yet, just a bunch of redneck sensationalism.  I think I remember you promising me some evidence of your claims; I'm still waiting patiently.    waiting......

I have to wonder how anyone following this thread can say no evidence has been presented. I say a heck of a lot of evidence has been shown if you only click on the links you will see plenty of proof of what is happening in areas where the canadian wolves are thick. Not only is there significant reduction of game, the government hunters can barely keep up with all the livestock and pet predation.

My question is, Please show us your proof that canadian wolves have not had the devastating impact in the areas of idaho that everyone (including local residents) say the elk and deer herds have been decimated, including many F&G employees.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

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Offline Elkaholic daWg

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #324 on: June 14, 2009, 06:13:44 PM »
[
My question is, Please show us your proof that canadian wolves have not had the devastating impact in the areas of idaho that everyone (including local residents) say the elk and deer herds have been decimated, including many F&G employees.



Great question.

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Offline wolfbait

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #325 on: June 14, 2009, 09:04:51 PM »
The start of the wolf reintroduction and maybe where it is going. If you pull up this site there is more to it but I didn't want to take up so much space, it is rather interesting though.


The wolf became the darling of the deep ecology movement that got its legs in the 1960s, partially because of the wolf's mythical status as a top predator. The deep ecology philosophy formed a look-don't-touch view of humankind's rights concerning nature, and when Farley Mowatt published his book "Never Cry Wolf" in 1963 -- which many scientists disdained for its lack of evidence -- wolf mythology changed overnight to embrace a new vision of wolf as "ideal father," "feisty mother," and "dependable pup sitter," according to Karen Jones in "Never Cry Wolf: Science, Sentiment, and the Literary Rehabilitation of Canis Lupus."

Critics charged that Mowatt had only observed wolves for a total of 90 hours, "an indictment of his research credibility and scientific commitment," Jones said. "Never Cry Wolf" was fiction, but its pretense as science undermined the credibility of biological research itself, she said.

Predicting that the book would influence many, reviewer A.S.F. Banfield concluded, "It is certain that not since Little Red Riding Hood has a story been written that will influence the attitude of so many toward these animals. I hope that the readers of 'Never Cry Wolf' will realize that both stories have about the same factual content."

Anthropomorphism -- which ascribes human traits to non-human species -- was used heavily by Mowatt, but no more than others like Disney or Aesop. Scientists, however, contend that there is no place for anthropomorphism in science.

The ecology movement applied terms like "loyal," "intelligent," "fun-loving," and "good parents" to wolf traits, implying they were superior to humans, Jones said. Canadian wildlife advocates adopted an "animal rights and human wrongs" view of nature, which emerged in the U.S. as Cleveland Amory's Fund for Animals in 1967 along with others like Defenders of Wildlife.

Most of these groups try very hard to dispel what they claim to be centuries-old "misinformation" about wolves.

"The state governments of both Wyoming and Idaho have taken strong stances against wolves based on emotionally laden misinformation that wolves are threatening state livestock and hunting industries," Stone said.

Nathan Varley, a wildlife biologist who took part in the DoW media teleconference, said, "Wolves will naturally go after the weak, vulnerable and sick animals first -- not the strong, healthy ones which are mostly invulnerable to wolf predation."

That view is hokum, say others.

"Wolves are opportunists, meaning they kill whatever is convenient. This may be old or sick animals or a pregnant female, but most significantly they prey on the young," Mader stated.

Wolves kill for food but they also kill for sport, said Nelson.

"Elk and deer populations are decreasing steadily, where the wolves are spreading," Beers said.

The North Yellowstone elk herd stood at more than 19,000 before the time of the "reintroduction" in 1994. As of 2004, with not much else changed, except the addition of wolves, the herd was estimated at 8,335 animals. The winter count conducted on Dec. 30, 2006 was 6,738 elk.

Montana State University ecology professor Scott Creel launched a study in 2002 to delve into the decline. To their surprise they found that elk cow's pregnancy rates had declined and that lower levels of progesterone were present.

Another side effect of the presence of wolves in elk country is that wariness levels go way up, making them much harder to find by hunters or others who just want a look, said Mike Stark of The Billings Gazette in an article dated Feb. 16, 2007.

Other alleged historical "misinformation" concerns the dangers of wolves to humans. Claiming that centuries-old European stories of wolves attacking humans is nothing more than fear-based mythology, deep ecology groups using the new mythology of Mowatt and others contend there is nothing to fear.

Will Graves, who has traveled extensively in Russia, is writing a book on the history of wolves in Russian literature in recent centuries. The great Canadian wildlife biologist Dr. Valerius Geist is editing the book for him.

"Russia has documented wolf attacks on humans better than any country in the world," Graves said. "In the Ural Mountains, many old folks and children were killed by wolves during the Napoleonic Wars, during the Bolshevik revolution and during World War II."

He claims that church documents back this up and that they're one of the most reliable forms of documentation.

"Centuries-old reports (churches, archives, etc.) of high rates of human life lost to wolves in Europe, Asia, and North America are ignored, demeaned and rejected by bureaucrat biologists, and all their partners in universities and the media," Beers said.

Graves' research shows that wolves lose their fear of humans if not hunted.

"If prey is scarce, then sometimes the wolves move in close to towns and search for dogs, cats, garbage, etc.," he said. "This is when there is danger."

In a recent letter to The Press on the subject of land planning, Coeur d'Alene resident Unus Vocate challenged readers to envision "green belts crisscrossing the entire nation; nature preserves of the different types of environments ... a society living in harmony with nature: How wonderful."

His plea is to drive the decision-making for land planning to much higher levels -- out of local hands.

Actually, there is a plan to do just that called the Wildlands Project, part of the U.N.'s Convention on Biological Diversity, which together with Agenda 21, a global plan for sustainable development, supersede the U.S. constitution and the property rights of its citizens.

The map of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, which is envisioned by these global planners can be viewed here. A map of the whole U.S. showing these plans was developed by Dr. Michael Coffman and was used to stop the ratification of the U.N. treaty by the U.S. Congress. Subsequently, the plan was essentially put in place by Executive Order 13158 of President Clinton and later President Bush did not revoke it.

So what does this have to do with wolves?

Finnish outdoorsman Magnus Hagelstam, who has studied the European Union's efforts to "reintroduce" wolves in eastern Germany and other parts of Europe, said, if depopulating the West is on the agenda of wolf aficionados, wolves can be very helpful.

"They are truly the ideal bioweapon for transforming ranchland into wilderness."



http://www.freedomadvocates.org/articles/wildlands_project/wolves_in_our_backyard_20070530234/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Satren lives in Idaho and writes for the  Hagadone News as their Outdoor News Editor. Email  msatren@cdapress.com This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it .


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For additional information on the dangers of wolves, please see this informative website http://www.prosts.com
   

 

Offline boneaddict

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #326 on: June 14, 2009, 09:10:08 PM »
I would say look at tag numbers.  Specifically moose.   They tend not to be factored as much by bad winters as the rest of the game. So its not as easily dismissed as a bad winter.    Look at wyomings tags and Idahos.   Then keep a keen eye on Washington.  By the way, I don't spend any time in the woods, just sit behind this computer all day and night.  :chuckle:

Wolves have been in the NE corner for awhile.  I thought they just got here. Like last year. :chuckle:

Offline Slider

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #327 on: June 14, 2009, 09:45:46 PM »
I would say look at tag numbers.  Specifically moose.   They tend not to be factored as much by bad winters as the rest of the game. So its not as easily dismissed as a bad winter.    Look at wyomings tags and Idahos.   Then keep a keen eye on Washington.  By the way, I don't spend any time in the woods, just sit behind this computer all day and night.  :chuckle:

Wolves have been in the NE corner for awhile.  I thought they just got here. Like last year. :chuckle:

Last year? Yea I heard they got there in the back of a truck!!!    :chuckle:

Offline Elkaholic daWg

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #328 on: June 15, 2009, 09:02:01 AM »


His plea is to drive the decision-making for land planning to much higher levels -- out of local hands.

Actually, there is a plan to do just that called the Wildlands Project, part of the U.N.'s Convention on Biological Diversity, which together with Agenda 21, a global plan for sustainable development, supersede the U.S. constitution and the property rights of its citizens.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Can you say Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act?   Yellowstone to Yukon? All goals of the wildlands project bunch
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 09:10:16 AM by Elkaholic daWg »
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Offline boneaddict

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Re: Wolves eating all our deer
« Reply #329 on: June 15, 2009, 09:05:22 AM »
I think the Bible even talks of these things(one world government at end times), but then again that hasn't been proven either, and is considered just a bunch of heresay.  :chuckle:

 


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