Wolves eating all our deer

[boneaddict]

I like how Geist begins......
Its in discussion about the death of Kenton Carnegie....."under the guise of scientific authority, political advocates declared that black bears killed Kenton Carnegie.  By reporting these claims in prestigious publications such as National Geograohic and National wildlife, they mislead the public into believing their version of the story.  Never mind that the facts clearly showed otherwise, and that the official inquiry declared wolves to be the cause of his death. The North American myth of harmless wolves is deadly!  This belief has killed at least THREE persons in North American alone in the last decade.

[boneaddict]

"advocacy behind the benign wolf myth is extremely powerful.  It almost seems the better educated people are the more likely to believe and fall victim to this myth.....
Currently reintroduced wolves in the Western US are showing signs of targetting people; however their intentions continue to be misinterpreted.......
he goes on an explains how sensationalized the wolf has become and that even scientist believe the Hollywood of it all.   

[boneaddict]

he then goes on and explains why its different in BC than in the rest of Canada and the US.  basically as I said before about how hunters can kill three wolv es...
"This readily removes any habituating wolves...."
he goes on and explains how the news media is blocking his observations from the public.  He then talks about multiple wolf attacks in other countries.  he then states " the causes of predation on humans are much the same THE STAGE IS SET BY PREY SCARCITY and de facto protection of wolves.  NEXT comes the systematic targeting of humans, ESPECIALLY children

[boneaddict]

He then goes intot he origin of the Harmless wolf myth.  Blamed it on Dr. Doug Clark and explains why.

Then I love this.
:Native people seem much less enamored with the myth of harmless wolves than are urban environmentalists.  As to the claimed lack of evidence that wolves prey on people, a native hunter gave the following response....EVIDENCE Wolves eat the evidence!
He then talks about Farley Mowat and his book.....in which wolves were depicted as harmless lovable mouse eaters.  While Canadian biologists did not fall for this prank, the literari did.....and are still falling for it.

[boneaddict]

When wolves begin to patiently observe humans, it signals that they are targetting humans as prey.  Such wolves may be short of natural prey, or they may be already habituated to humans.Patient observation means that wolves have begun to familiarize themselves with humans and that an attack is liekly to follow.  The same pattern has been seen with urban coyotes.  In any case these animals need to be taken out.  In BC hunters can harvest these wolves and it provides a safety valve. Healthy free living wolvesare virtually unhuntable
The animls most likely killed by hunters aredisadvantaged by age, condition or rejection of the pack. Consequently even liberal hunting laws need not threatenwolf abundance.


Thats what I have been saying!

[wolfbait]

Question 5: Randy B asks: "As a supporter of wolves I am often faced with accusations of wolf attacks on people. I have heard that no human has ever been killed in the US by a wolf. Is this true? What is the record of wolf caused injuries ? How do wolf attacks compare to cougar, bear, coyote and bobcats attacks?"

 Our Conservation Associate, Gina Schrader answers: "In general, wolves fear humans and do not approach them. As of October 2008, there is no documented case of a healthy, wild wolf killing a human in the United States. In fact, very few incidents involving wolves attacking humans have occurred in North America. Those rare occurrences were reportedly caused because wolves associated humans as a food source, or because a wolf was likely reacting to the presence of dogs. 


There are several cases of wolves killing people in the US. But in the last 80 or so years there have not been that many wolves in the US. Bringing the Canadian wolves in here and then not managing them has change all that. Now with as many wolves as there are here in the lower 48 and growing, eventually the pro-wolf people will be changing the numbers on wolves killing people in the US. Not long ago they were saying there had never been a human killed by wolves in North America, but with the Kenton Carnegie killing they had to change their wording a bit. I have not been able to find any positive resaon for having these Canadian wolves down here in the lower 48, they don't belong down here. Can anyone tell me why these wolves should be here? What are their positive aspects for the lower 48?

[WAcoyotehunter]

How do wolf attacks compare to cougar, bear, coyote and bobcats attacks?"

 I have not been able to find any positive resaon for having these Canadian wolves down here in the lower 48, they don't belong down here. Can anyone tell me why these wolves should be here? What are their positive aspects for the lower 48?

Good question about the cougar, bobcat, bear attacks.  There are lots more attacks from those species, but they are far more abundant and widespread. 


Again, the wolves in the Methow (presuming we're still talking about Washington) are our native species.  The Yellowstone animals have not made much of an appearance yet, but we shall see what happens up in NE.  So far, the animals up here appear to be native animals too, btu the new DNA evidence collected on the trail cam set will tell.

[boneaddict]

How do wolf attacks compare to cougar, bear, coyote and bobcats attacks?"

Cougar you probably won't even know is happening and you'll be lights out before you even think about it.

Bear you are probably thinking OH CRAP as they are barreling in on you and start to amuling you and you hope they don't chomp anything critical before they lose interest.  

Wolves , you are probably still screaming and fighting for your life while they eat you alive.

Bobcats...the only attack scenerio I can think of is from Dmans, bobcat "hybrid"

Coyotes....small children only

[Kain]

I posted these links and stories on the bow hunting page.  Just thought since this thread is collection of links I would post it here also.  


Previously posted here in response to a member thinking that no one had ever been attacked by a wolf.   http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,4289.165.html

Wolves have attacked people.  People get the information confused when they are told that "wolves have never killed a human in North America" and it gets changed to "wolves have never attacked a human in North America".  It is very rare but with more and more wolves the chances get higher.  These are only the attacks that could be verified.  There are many attacks reported that are dismissed due to lack of evidence.  That doesnt mean they were not wolves it just means that who ever investigated couldnt/wouldnt confirm it was a wolf.
  
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID1CNsdw4NA[/youtube]


http://www.wildsentry.org/WolfAttack.html

"Recent Attacks in North America

     In Ontario, Canada where thousands of people visit Algonquin Provincial Park-and many of them come to see or hear wolves-five people have been bit in the past twelve years. During August 1996, a wolf dragged 12-year-old Zachariah Delventhal from his sleeping bag. This particular wolf, prior to attacking Zachariah, had entered campsites and taken things such as a backpack, tennis shoe and other human items. As we've been in contact with the Delventhal family, we can let Zachariah describe what happened. He wrote the following in November 1996:

     "The scariest night of my life… was the last night of a terrific 10-day camping trip at Algonquin Provincial Park in Ontario. We were exhausted and wanted to get out the next morning quickly so we decided to sleep under the stars. I remember dreaming that me, my mom, and my dad were walking through the woods. Then I felt pressure on my head and the woods started flying past. I awoke and still felt the pressure, but there was a new feeling of pain. I screamed, immediately the pressure released and the pain lessened. I opened my eyes-nothing but dark forest. I had been dragged six feet and I knew it was an animal mouth that did it. I yelled, 'Something bit me!' My mother came and held my sleeping bag to my face. Then my dad got up and started yelling. I got scared as he disappeared into the underbrush but he came back. I asked, 'What was it?' Then came two terrifying words, 'A wolf.' I immediately started to pull away from where I was dragged, I freaked. It was so scary and confusing at the same time. I didn't want to get eaten by such a strong animal. As for confusing, think about this-I had been told wolves don't attack people and here I was practically killed by one. My list of wounds is extensive. I had over 80 stitches to close the many cuts, my nose was broken in five places, I am missing a piece of my ear, my gums, and my tearduct and cheekbone were punctured. After all this, don't be scared to go in the woods, don't think of wolves as killers. The chances of getting attacked are so slim; I can't get a hold of the fact that I was attacked. My parents were wrong when they said wolves don't attack people, but wolves almost never do."

     Two years later, on September 25, 1998, another Algonquin wolf circled a little girl and despite blasts of pepper spray, didn't leave until the child entered a trailer. Two days after that, a nineteen-month-old boy sat playing in the middle of camp, with his parents twenty feet away. The father thought he saw a dog emerge from the brush. He turned away for a moment and when he looked back, he saw his son in the jaws of a wolf. The wolf held the boy for a moment and then tossed him three feet. A local newspaper quoted the parents, "It wasn't hit and run. He hit him [the infant] and then it was wait and see. He [the wolf] circled the picnic table a number of times before he was scared off enough to leave." The infant received two stitches for minor injuries.

Misinformation
At the end of one of the articles about the Yakutat incident, reporters Elizabeth Manning and Craig Medred wrote, "In Canada, at least one person has been killed by wolves in the past 50 years. A 24-year-old woman was attacked by a pack of five at the Haliburton Forest and Wildlife Reserve in Ontario in 1996." Had we not known about this incident, we would've come away believing that wild wolves killed the woman when in fact it was a captive pack. This is but one example among many, of how misinformation begets misperceptions that give rise to disproportionate fears.

     On April 26, 2000, a six and nine year old boy cut down small trees as they played at being loggers on the outskirts of a logging camp near Yakutat in southeastern Alaska.

     Upon seeing a wolf, the children fled. The wolf took down six-year-old John Stenglein and bit him on the back, legs and buttocks. A neighbor's golden retriever rushed to the rescue but the wolf drove the dog back and then set upon John again. The boy's cries brought adults who drove the wolf away. John received seven stitches and five surgical closure staples.

     During the evening of July 1, 2000, on the shores of Vargas Island, British Columbia, a wolf entered the campsite of a kayaking group. They chased the wolf away. Members of the group also spotted another wolf that apparently hung back from the bolder wolf. At 2 a.m., 23-year-old Scott Langevin awoke with a small dark wolf tugging on his sleeping bag. "I yelled to try to spook it off, and I kicked at it," Scott said. "It backed up a bit, but then it just lunged on top of me, and it started biting away through my sleeping bag."

     He rolled in an effort to situate the fire between him and the wolf, but the animal jumped on his back and bit him about the head. The noise woke his friends and they drove the wolf away. The wounds to Scott's head required 50 stitches.

     In all of the previous incidents, the offending wolves were killed. Autopsies indicated healthy animals."


http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=825_1198391329

Then there are those attacks that could be wolves that are blamed on bears or cats.  We will never know but those "wolf experts" are not trustworthy IMO because most of them are wolf conservationists that dont want any bad wolf press.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/315/16084

And just wait until they close down your favorite area because wolves might attack.  Lame!

http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=10258162

[Kain]

Why they can get away with saying no one has been killed by wolves.

http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html

The question arises: "Why so many attacks in Asia and so few in North America?"
 
Two factors must be considered:
 
1.      The Philosophy of Conservation - Our forefathers always believed that they had the right and obligation to protect their livelihoods.  Considerable distance was necessary between man and wolf for the wolf to survive.
 
2.      Firearms - Inexpensive, efficient weapons gave man the upper hand in the protection of his livelihood and for the taking of wolves.
 
Milton P. Skinner in his book, “The Yellowstone Nature Book” (published 1924) wrote, "Most of the stories we hear of the ferocity of these animals... come from Europe. There, they are dangerous because they do not fear man, since they are seldom hunted except by the lords of the manor. In America, the wolves are the same kind, but they have found to their bitter cost that practically every man and boy carries a rifle..."
 
Skinner was correct. The areas of Asia where wolf attacks occur on humans are the same areas where the people have no firearms or other effective means of predator control.
 
But ... "Biologists claim there are no documented cases of healthy wild wolves attacking humans."
 
What they really mean is there are no "documented" cases by their criteria which excludes historical accounts. Here's an example.
 
Rabid wolves were a frightening experience in the early years due to their size and the seriousness of being bit, especially before a vaccine was developed. The bitten subject usually died a slow, miserable death. There are numerous accounts of rabid wolves and their activities.  Early Army forts have medical records of rabid wolves coming into the posts and biting several people before being killed. Most of the people bitten died slow, horrible deaths.  Additionally, early historical writings relate personal accounts. This author recalls one historical account telling of a man being tied to a tree and left to die because of his violent behavior with rabies after being bitten by a wolf. Such deaths left profound impressions on eyewitnesses of those events.
 
Dr. David Mech, USFWS wolf biologist, states there are no "documented" cases of rabid wolves below the fifty seventh latitude north (near Whitehorse, Yukon Territory). When asked what "documented" meant, he stated, "The head of the wolf must be removed, sent to a lab for testing and found to be rabid."
 
Those requirements for documentation negate all historical records!
 
As with rabid wolves, the biologist can say, "There are no `documented' cases of wild healthy wolves attacking humans." In order to be "documented" these unreasonable criteria must be met:
 
1.      The wolf has to be killed, examined and found to be healthy.
 
2.      It must be proven that the wolf was never kept in captivity in its entire life.
 
3.      There must be eyewitnesses to the attack.
 
4.      The person must die from their wounds (bites are generally not considered attacks according to the biologists).
 
That is a "documented" attack.
 
Such criteria make it very difficult to document any historical account of a wolf attack on a human!

[boneaddict]

Geist eluded to that and thats what that Clarke guy did, he listed all attacks as rabid. 

[wolfbait]

As our deer grow fewer, the wolves will grow braver. These wolves have been seen on the edge of town within 100 yards of the town fire department garage. The reason we are seeing more wolves down low is because there are few deer left and the one's that we do see are around homes or in town. You can ask people who live out of town if they have seen any deer, and you git the look, like where have you been. we don't have any deer anymore. This years hunting season will be put on for mostly show. If we git a hard winter, well that will be the blame as to why our deer are in such bad shape. But thoughs of us who live here know better. Great research you guys are doing. There are plenty more documented wolf attacks. Here in the lower 48 where they are not being managed you can imagine the impact this will have when the wolves start hitting the fan and killing people. The pro-wolf people are backing themselves in a hole by fighting the delisting because one of these days something bad is going to happen. I think what they don't seem to understand, is these wolves will at sometime end up in their neighborhood also. It is what happens when you start stacking wolves on wolves, they must go somewhere.

At this point I don't think tag hunting of these wolves will help much anyway.. The only way that I can see where perhaps the wolves could have any kind of control is if they were put on Open Season as the coyotes are. Of course in order for that to happen these wolves will have to kill a few people so that the right people will feel the heat.

Midwesterners are going to have to learn to live with wolves. Each spring, 2,000 pups are born in Minnesota alone, and the 150 to 225 wolves Wildlife Services takes from the population each year won't even make a squiggle on the expansion graph. The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) believes that the state has never had more wolves. That is because there have never been more deer. In fact, the deer population now provides more meat per acre than the wolves' historical prey base of caribou, moose, elk, and bison. Moreover, 30 to 50 percent of the total wolf population would have to be removed annually just to keep it from expanding. That probably couldn't be done without bounties and an all-out, 1950s-style air and poison war, a political and legal impossibility. http://audubonmagazine.org/features0011/livingwithwolves.html

Basically what I saw on the news was that the DNR was asking hunters if they want a wolf hunt. Of course hunters do, the wolves are wiping out the deer population up north! I'm not holding my breath till they deside for a fact that a hunting season is needed, it could take 5 years to become a reality and the area's being over run by wolves probably do not have that long. I gun hunted near Black River Falls last season and never saw a deer or even a deer track. Just 1 year earlier, opening morning sounded like a war zone in the same area. Wolves move pretty fast when it comes to killing deer that have had 0 natural predators in over 100 years.
The only good thing that comes from having wolves is that the overpopulation of deer will no longer exist, which should help keep CWD and other deseases in check. I've been talking with a biologist who's been studying the elk near Clame Lake. Over the years, the wolves have pretty much left the elk alone up until last year. As he predicted, the wolves are running out of easy to kill deer in that area and as a result we've seen more elk killed by wolves lately. If something isn't done soon, our elk herd will be in trouble. We only have 130 elk. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2766066

In recent years there has been isolated hunting allowed when wolves briefly came off the endangered list in some areas. Bangs said some 265 wolves were killed last year in the northern Rockies "because of cattle problems but the population still grew eight percent. "http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j7XUqo9zpt0zksJLfYp4qUPDkxyg

[jackelope]

i imagine we are getting to close to having every single piece of wolf information on the world wide web copied and pasted to this thread.

are we there yet?

[wolfbait]

i imagine we are getting to close to having every single piece of wolf information on the world wide web copied and pasted to this thread.

are we there yet?

Not even close, I been doin this for 3 n half months, and I still find stuff I haven't read. Some of the Info you guys have found I never saw before. We are lucky that we are able to find this info. if we couldn't then we would be just as ill imformed as the media wants everyone to be.

[jackelope]

I still want to see a picture of a wolf in your backyard.