Acceptable grouping with mil spec AR rifles??

[jrebel]

What is considered an acceptable group with Mil Spec AR rifles at 100 yards? 

I'm not talking varmint barreled built AR's with 1.5 lb triggers....etc. etc. etc.  I'm talking 16" barrel mil spec with say a 1-6 combat style scope. 

[Dan-o]

In my experience, 4" or so.

You can cut that in half with a $90 trigger from LaRue.

I'm sure there are folks on here who know better than me.   My experience is based on putting together about a dozen relatively cheap ones.
And I'm middlin' shot.   I'm others could do better with the same rifle.

[jrebel]

In my experience, 4" or so.

You can cut that in half with a $90 trigger from LaRue.

I'm sure there are folks on here who know better than me.   My experience is based on putting together about a dozen relatively cheap ones.
And I'm middlin' shot.   I'm others could do better with the same rifle.

This makes me feel better.  I just worked a load for my bolt 300 blackout and it is holding sub 1 moa out of a 16" barrel with suppressor.  Was hoping the same round would work for my 16" AR and am holding 2-3 MOA groups.  I think I will load the same round for both rifles.  101 grain bullet at 2665 fps is a pretty stellar load. 

[dreadi]

This is acceptable



This is not acceptable:



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[jrebel]

This is acceptable



This is not acceptable:



BLACK HAMMER ARMS
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What kind of optic?  What rifle / barrel info?  I've never had a mil spec do that.  I had a varmint rifle with 20" heavy barrel that would do that with a higher power scope......but that rifle was built specific for predator hunting. 

[dreadi]

This is acceptable



This is not acceptable:



BLACK HAMMER ARMS
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What kind of optic?  What rifle / barrel info?  I've never had a mil spec do that.  I had a varmint rifle with 20" heavy barrel that would do that with a higher power scope......but that rifle was built specific for predator hunting.

1:7 18" Daniel Defense barrel on a Stag A2 rifle lower. Trijicon 2.5-10x56


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[jrebel]

So not your standard mil spec rifle.  (I'm not a huge AR guy so I'm thinking, $450 upper strapped to a $100 lower, built with a $60 parts kit...)

Maybe "Mil Spec" wasn't the wording I was looking for...."Budget" AR may be more descriptive.  Again....my 20" heavy barrel varmint rifle was capable of sub MOA.  Just trying to figure out what I should expect.  I love reloading, I love bolt guns........I don't love AR's.

[luvmystang67]

Is your barrel free floated, or the standard spring plastic handguard?

I've had bad luck with the stock  16" barrels, but I've got an 18" barrel on a 6.5 grendel that shoots dang near same hole.  I've got an 18" barrel on a 308 that i struggle to get inside 1.5"... so it all depends, but you're not wildly out of place.  This is why I prefer ARs to other platforms (AK) because they can be made to be accurate eventually and swapping barrels is pretty easy and affordable.

[dreadi]

So not your standard mil spec rifle.  (I'm not a huge AR guy so I'm thinking, $450 upper strapped to a $100 lower, built with a $60 parts kit...)

Maybe "Mil Spec" wasn't the wording I was looking for...."Budget" AR may be more descriptive.  Again....my 20" heavy barrel varmint rifle was capable of sub MOA.  Just trying to figure out what I should expect.  I love reloading, I love bolt guns........I don't love AR's.

Those are definitely two different descriptors.

What's acceptable and what you should expect are subjective. Some people think 1 MOA is acceptable. If your objective is to get a sub MOA, then you may have to load for it. What works in your bolt gun may not work well in your semiauto. Are they even the same twist rate?

For reference, the same lower with a 20" Stag A2 upper and iron sights with the same load at 100yds as fast as the range will allow.

I find that somewhat acceptable.


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[dreadi]

Also, magnification doesn't count toward small groups. This was from my 458 SOCOM AR with a Eotech with a 1 MOA dot.




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[jrebel]

Do that 10 times over and tell me magnification doesn’t matter.   There is a reason that is cropped.   200 yards with no magnification holding quarter MOA…..not buying it.   Just cause AR’s isn’t my thing, doesn’t make me a fool….

I shoot more than most…and can tell you a 1/2 minute rifle without optics wont hold 1/4 minute at 200 yards.   Not buying it.   

[dreadi]

Do that 10 times over and tell me magnification doesn’t matter.   There is a reason that is cropped.   200 yards with no magnification holding quarter MOA…..not buying it.   Just cause AR’s isn’t my thing, doesn’t make me a fool….

I shoot more than most…and can tell you a 1/2 minute rifle without optics wont hold 1/4 minute at 200 yards.   Not buying it.

Are you saying that the information I've presented is not true?


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[jrebel]

I’m saying optics matter and you couldn’t repeat that 10 times over with a 1 moa red dot at 200 yards.  I’d bet a lot of money on that.   


 

[Alchase]

In my experience, 4" or so.

You can cut that in half with a $90 trigger from LaRue.

I'm sure there are folks on here who know better than me.   My experience is based on putting together about a dozen relatively cheap ones.
And I'm middlin' shot.   I'm others could do better with the same rifle.

 

MIL-Spec from the manufacturer, is a maximum 4 MOA for M16/AR15 shooting M855a1 62gr Steel Core Ball rounds (green tips) at 100 yards.

You can substantially improve that by replacing any or all of these options:

Replace the trigger with a quality trigger (Geissele, Larue, LMT, etc...).
Replace the barrel (Hodge, Centurion, Black river tactical, Criterion, Triarc, Larue, Roscoe, Krieger, etc...).
Replace the hand guard with a free float hand guard (not touching the barrel).
Using a good quality ammo, Match Grade Bullet, or Hand Loads will obviously help as well.

Or as I prefer, you can also just buy a decent quality Upper with all of the above fairly cheaply.

[rgcopk9]

Also, magnification doesn't count toward small groups. This was from my 458 SOCOM AR with a Eotech with a 1 MOA dot.




BLACK HAMMER ARMS
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That’s funny, my 458 SOCOM shoots one hole groups too. I call it the “one hole wonder” like I wonder how I got it to shoot so good. I’m running 300gr TTSX over LilGun.


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[Dysfunctional Vet]

So not your standard mil spec rifle.  (I'm not a huge AR guy so I'm thinking, $450 upper strapped to a $100 lower, built with a $60 parts kit...)

Maybe "Mil Spec" wasn't the wording I was looking for...."Budget" AR may be more descriptive.  Again....my 20" heavy barrel varmint rifle was capable of sub MOA.  Just trying to figure out what I should expect.  I love reloading, I love bolt guns........I don't love AR's.

”budget AR” and “mil spec” is the same thing. The lowest bidder wins the military contract so it’s always budget. Lol

[Alchase]

So not your standard mil spec rifle.  (I'm not a huge AR guy so I'm thinking, $450 upper strapped to a $100 lower, built with a $60 parts kit...)

Maybe "Mil Spec" wasn't the wording I was looking for...."Budget" AR may be more descriptive.  Again....my 20" heavy barrel varmint rifle was capable of sub MOA.  Just trying to figure out what I should expect.  I love reloading, I love bolt guns........I don't love AR's.

”budget AR” and “mil spec” is the same thing. The lowest bidder wins the military contract so it’s always budget. Lol

I do not necessarily agree that budget AR = Mil-Spec.
The Colt M4 Carbine CR6920, or the FN same Spec, are battle proven dang good rifles.
There are a few ton of “budget ARs” that do not stand with Mil-Spec Colt or FN.
I will say there are also allot of decent rifles below the $1000.00 price range. And many manufacturers have improved their ARs to be equal or better than the Colt and FN, in the same price range.

[buckfvr]

 


Ya I dont see the connection between "mil spec" and "budget" as one is not indicative of the other.

[jdb]

I have a psa ar15, with a vx3hd 1.5x5 with a standard duplex. With frontier.223 55 grain match grade hollow points it’s will shoot 1” to 1.5” groups off a bipod on a bench

[Alchase]

I have a psa ar15, with a vx3hd 1.5x5 with a standard duplex. With frontier.223 55 grain match grade hollow points it’s will shoot 1” to 1.5” groups off a bipod on a bench

Nice shooting!

Weekend before last I was shooting at the 100 yard range, when I glassed my groups I could not help but notice two lanes to my left someone was hitting sub-MOA.
I looked left and saw this gentleman at least my age if not older, shooting “off hand” 
I have met most of the shooters that hit this range. I had ever seen this gentleman.
I watched his hits through two 20 round mags. If it were not for two flyers, he would have had 40 rounds sub-MOA.
I waited to talk to him. He was ex-Army Delta (in the 80s-90s, shooting a Danial Defense WPSM4A1 Signature Series, with a Steiner M8Xi 1-8x24, A $4k scope!
I have shot the Steiner 1-8x24 twice, probably the sweetest variable scope I know. Also extremely expensive.
It is rare to see a true master of his craft shoot. This guy never had his rifles touch the bench. I was amazed, mostly because I have been a believer in off hand shooting, because this is the how you or I will be shooting in a real life scenario.
I practice all the time under 50 yards, with multiple targets while shooting and scooting. And hate to admit it, but the eyes just aren’t what they once were. And at one time I was very good at CQB. Seeing a guy my age still shooting like that was. Really nice to see.

[jrebel]

Worked up three loads and went to the range today.  Shrunk that initial group by over half and am shooting sub 1.5 MOA.  One of the groups was right at or under 1 MOA.  It appears the gas gun likes a little less velocity.  May try a tuner brake to see if I can tighten it up even more. 

First picture is the bolt gun 16" 300 blackout shooting suppressed 5 shot group, 2660 fps.

Second picture is the AR 300 blackout not suppressed with 2 grains less, 2460 fps.

Have to post the pics from my phone....so it will take a minute or two. 

[jrebel]

Same load work up as the bolt rifle shot in the AR. 

[Alchase]

 Very nice!

What barrels do you have on those?
And triggers?

[jrebel]

Very nice!

What barrels do you have on those?
And triggers?

It's got a Timney Impact trigger and whatever barrel palmetto puts in their uppers?   I'm not a huge AR guy, but had this one put together on the cheap to fill a void in my life.  I'm impressed with how it is shooting right now and hope to tweak it a little more to have it shooting as close to 1MOA as possible. 

I have a Rise Armament Trigger that I may try out in this rifle to see which one I like better.  The price was right on the Timney when I bought it so had to try it.  It breaks right at 3 lbs. 

[Alchase]

Very nice!

What barrels do you have on those?
And triggers?

It's got a Timney Impact trigger and whatever barrel palmetto puts in their uppers?   I'm not a huge AR guy, but had this one put together on the cheap to fill a void in my life.  I'm impressed with how it is shooting right now and hope to tweak it a little more to have it shooting as close to 1MOA as possible. 

I have a Rise Armament Trigger that I may try out in this rifle to see which one I like better.  The price was right on the Timney when I bought it so had to try it.  It breaks right at 3 lbs. 

That is pretty good accuracy for a stock off-the-shelf PSA barrel.