Roadless Rule Public Comment

[Tbar]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum.

Regarding Montana:
Does that change the fact that all of the best producing units in Montana have significant amounts of farming and ranching?
Does it change the fact that the biggest wilderness in Montana has had its elk herd wiped out by predators?

Look at any one of the top producing elk units in Montana and then find the neighboring unit with the least roads and elk harvest will be less than half and sometimes less than 25%. I cannot put much worth in those who say roadless areas hold more animals, the harvest stats just do not support that belief! However, I would fully agree that seasonal road closures in logging areas are a good thing, game animals thrive in logging areas. Another beneficial thing are the farmers and ranchers who do not allow hunting, those are great reservoirs for game to flourish on the agriculture and then spread into other areas where they can be hunted.

Montana's highest producing elk units all have large amounts of private property that are farmed, ranched, have human activity, and thousands of cattle on the landscape. I outfit in one of these units and the best elk hunting in that unit is on private ranch lands with cattle, humans checking the cows on atv's or horses, agricultural crops, and far fewer predators.
Unit 410 - 950 elk
Unit 380 - 795 elk
Unit 411 - 700 elk
Unit 314 - 658 elk
Unit 393 - 565 elk
Unit 360 - 533 elk


The largest wilderness in Montana is the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Together, the Great Bear, Bob Marshall, and Scapegoat Wildernesses form the Bob Marshall Wilderness Complex, an area of more than 1.5 million acres. Here's the elk Harvest in the most roadless units within the Bob Marshal Complex, according to many people this roadless area should be full of elk! I know outfitters, guides, and hunters who hunt these units, there are many hunts that not one elk is seen during the hunt.
Unit 141 - 4 elk
Unit 280 - 17 elk
Unit 424 - 33 elk
Unit 150 - 50 elk
Unit 442 - 103 elk

These wilderness areas could be better hunting again if arial predator management was allowed (there are no roads for other types of predator management). Wildfires do create good habitat, but too many predators prevent herds from recovering. We all enjoy a wilderness experience, and I would never want to see our wildernesses eliminated, but wilderness hunting is simply not as good as it was 50 years ago before the predator craze took over our government agencies.

2024 Harvest Verified Here:  https://myfwp.mt.gov/fwpPub/harvestReports

Critical habitat is not necessarily where harvest occurs and there is concerted efforts to kill elk in conflict zones throughout the west.  Carrying capacity in the interface is set artificially low to accommodate social Carrying capacity which I am sure you at aware and are also a beneficiary through tag allocation.  It would be a much different story if the limited untouched habitat were fragmented.  Time will tell but it seems very short sighted to not recognize the multiple benefits of these(very limited) areas throughout the west.  The benefits will be to very few and the impacts very broad. 
Side note,  did you follow the pebble mine? I only ask because it was the potential devastation of a pristine area and what could potentially occur throughout the west.
  I put a high value on these places and acknowledge the mismanagement that is so prevalent in the current roaded areas.  There is potential to improve without repealing the roadless rule.

[jackelope]

It’s probably fair to say that hunting is almost always better on private ground, isn’t it?  Aka farm land out here in the west? I mean it’s like a gigantic food plot.

[Tbar]

It’s probably fair to say that hunting is almost always better on private ground, isn’t it?  Aka farm land out here in the west? I mean it’s like a gigantic food plot.

I don't disagree but it's dangerous to depend solely on private ground.  Another consideration is alpine species like mountain goats and others.  Those environments are almost exclusively in the roadless area and are proven to be very fragile.  Fragmentation alone can threaten certain species, industrialization could be catastrophic (pebble mine).

[hunter399]

It’s probably fair to say that hunting is almost always better on private ground, isn’t it?  Aka farm land out here in the west? I mean it’s like a gigantic food plot.

Heck ya it is .....lol
I'd bet there is a very high percentage statewide.
If I had to put a number on my area ,I'd say 80 percent of big game animals live on private.

[bearpaw]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum.

Regarding Montana:
Does that change the fact that all of the best producing units in Montana have significant amounts of farming and ranching?
Does it change the fact that the biggest wilderness in Montana has had its elk herd wiped out by predators?

Look at any one of the top producing elk units in Montana and then find the neighboring unit with the least roads and elk harvest will be less than half and sometimes less than 25%. I cannot put much worth in those who say roadless areas hold more animals, the harvest stats just do not support that belief! However, I would fully agree that seasonal road closures in logging areas are a good thing, game animals thrive in logging areas. Another beneficial thing are the farmers and ranchers who do not allow hunting, those are great reservoirs for game to flourish on the agriculture and then spread into other areas where they can be hunted.

Montana's highest producing elk units all have large amounts of private property that are farmed, ranched, have human activity, and thousands of cattle on the landscape. I outfit in one of these units and the best elk hunting in that unit is on private ranch lands with cattle, humans checking the cows on atv's or horses, agricultural crops, and far fewer predators.
Unit 410 - 950 elk
Unit 380 - 795 elk
Unit 411 - 700 elk
Unit 314 - 658 elk
Unit 393 - 565 elk
Unit 360 - 533 elk


The largest wilderness in Montana is the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Together, the Great Bear, Bob Marshall, and Scapegoat Wildernesses form the Bob Marshall Wilderness Complex, an area of more than 1.5 million acres. Here's the elk Harvest in the most roadless units within the Bob Marshal Complex, according to many people this roadless area should be full of elk! I know outfitters, guides, and hunters who hunt these units, there are many hunts that not one elk is seen during the hunt.
Unit 141 - 4 elk
Unit 280 - 17 elk
Unit 424 - 33 elk
Unit 150 - 50 elk
Unit 442 - 103 elk

These wilderness areas could be better hunting again if arial predator management was allowed (there are no roads for other types of predator management). Wildfires do create good habitat, but too many predators prevent herds from recovering. We all enjoy a wilderness experience, and I would never want to see our wildernesses eliminated, but wilderness hunting is simply not as good as it was 50 years ago before the predator craze took over our government agencies.

2024 Harvest Verified Here:  https://myfwp.mt.gov/fwpPub/harvestReports

Critical habitat is not necessarily where harvest occurs and there is concerted efforts to kill elk in conflict zones throughout the west.  Carrying capacity in the interface is set artificially low to accommodate social Carrying capacity which I am sure you at aware and are also a beneficiary through tag allocation.  It would be a much different story if the limited untouched habitat were fragmented.  Time will tell but it seems very short sighted to not recognize the multiple benefits of these(very limited) areas throughout the west.  The benefits will be to very few and the impacts very broad. 
Side note,  did you follow the pebble mine? I only ask because it was the potential devastation of a pristine area and what could potentially occur throughout the west.
  I put a high value on these places and acknowledge the mismanagement that is so prevalent in the current roaded areas.  There is potential to improve without repealing the roadless rule.

While I totally agree that areas for escapement are needed there are ways other than the roadless rule to accomplish that. No matter what arguments you may try, the fact is proven that units with logging, farming, and ranching support more game, and result in more game harvested, it's just a fact.

Look up any wilderness or large roadless area that has no logging, agriculture, or ranching, the herds are smaller than game management units that have logging, agriculture, or ranching. The more you look at the stats and where the herds are actually strongest, the more it proves my point. Go ahead, please prove me wrong?

I won't argue that we need to maintain some wilderness areas for the sake of having wilderness. But don't try to say wilderness supports larger game herds, it simply doesn't.

If hunters want more game, support logging, agriculture, predator management, and by all means demand that there are at least seasonal road closures to provide escapement for wildlife. The trend of diminishing herds can be reversed! But this mistaken idea that untouched land with overage forests is the holy grail of wildlife management is just patently false! That misplaced idealism is what has reduced our game herds and will continue to do so if not reversed!

[bearpaw]

Prevent Conservation Extremism, Maintain Wild Places, Benefit Wildlife, Reduce Fuel For Wildfires, and Maximize Multiple Use On USFS Lands

 - Create a citizen advisory board within each USFS National Forest to maximize the underlined criteria. (one person as recommended by and representing each interest group: USFS, DNR, F&G, Conservation, Logging, Mining, Recreation, Hunting, Ranching)

 - Require checkerboard or wagon wheel style timber sales on 6% to 8% of non-wilderness National Forest lands annually for first 5 years

 - Reassess and adjust: the percentage of annual timber harvest to maximize the core criteria and asses the need and number of USFS employees every 5 years.

 - Require 5 to 20 trees per acre in timber harvest areas to be left for natural reseeding.

 - Implement various types of road closures after timber harvest.

 - Designate 25% of timber sale proceeds for road maintenance and recreational facilities.

[Tbar]

Is it odd that Montana fwp said this will negatively impact 90% of their elk herds critical habitat on one way or another.  The word we received from them was broad opposition.  Blind support and topics with myopic viewpoints seems way to normal from both sides of the political spectrum.

Regarding Montana:
Does that change the fact that all of the best producing units in Montana have significant amounts of farming and ranching?
Does it change the fact that the biggest wilderness in Montana has had its elk herd wiped out by predators?

Look at any one of the top producing elk units in Montana and then find the neighboring unit with the least roads and elk harvest will be less than half and sometimes less than 25%. I cannot put much worth in those who say roadless areas hold more animals, the harvest stats just do not support that belief! However, I would fully agree that seasonal road closures in logging areas are a good thing, game animals thrive in logging areas. Another beneficial thing are the farmers and ranchers who do not allow hunting, those are great reservoirs for game to flourish on the agriculture and then spread into other areas where they can be hunted.

Montana's highest producing elk units all have large amounts of private property that are farmed, ranched, have human activity, and thousands of cattle on the landscape. I outfit in one of these units and the best elk hunting in that unit is on private ranch lands with cattle, humans checking the cows on atv's or horses, agricultural crops, and far fewer predators.
Unit 410 - 950 elk
Unit 380 - 795 elk
Unit 411 - 700 elk
Unit 314 - 658 elk
Unit 393 - 565 elk
Unit 360 - 533 elk


The largest wilderness in Montana is the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Together, the Great Bear, Bob Marshall, and Scapegoat Wildernesses form the Bob Marshall Wilderness Complex, an area of more than 1.5 million acres. Here's the elk Harvest in the most roadless units within the Bob Marshal Complex, according to many people this roadless area should be full of elk! I know outfitters, guides, and hunters who hunt these units, there are many hunts that not one elk is seen during the hunt.
Unit 141 - 4 elk
Unit 280 - 17 elk
Unit 424 - 33 elk
Unit 150 - 50 elk
Unit 442 - 103 elk

These wilderness areas could be better hunting again if arial predator management was allowed (there are no roads for other types of predator management). Wildfires do create good habitat, but too many predators prevent herds from recovering. We all enjoy a wilderness experience, and I would never want to see our wildernesses eliminated, but wilderness hunting is simply not as good as it was 50 years ago before the predator craze took over our government agencies.

2024 Harvest Verified Here:  https://myfwp.mt.gov/fwpPub/harvestReports

Critical habitat is not necessarily where harvest occurs and there is concerted efforts to kill elk in conflict zones throughout the west.  Carrying capacity in the interface is set artificially low to accommodate social Carrying capacity which I am sure you at aware and are also a beneficiary through tag allocation.  It would be a much different story if the limited untouched habitat were fragmented.  Time will tell but it seems very short sighted to not recognize the multiple benefits of these(very limited) areas throughout the west.  The benefits will be to very few and the impacts very broad. 
Side note,  did you follow the pebble mine? I only ask because it was the potential devastation of a pristine area and what could potentially occur throughout the west.
  I put a high value on these places and acknowledge the mismanagement that is so prevalent in the current roaded areas.  There is potential to improve without repealing the roadless rule.

While I totally agree that areas for escapement are needed there are ways other than the roadless rule to accomplish that. No matter what arguments you may try, the fact is proven that units with logging, farming, and ranching support more game, and result in more game harvested, it's just a fact.

Look up any wilderness or large roadless area that has no logging, agriculture, or ranching, the herds are smaller than game management units that have logging, agriculture, or ranching. The more you look at the stats and where the herds are actually strongest, the more it proves my point. Go ahead, please prove me wrong?

I won't argue that we need to maintain some wilderness areas for the sake of having wilderness. But don't try to say wilderness supports larger game herds, it simply doesn't.

If hunters want more game, support logging, agriculture, predator management, and by all means demand that there are at least seasonal road closures to provide escapement for wildlife. The trend of diminishing herds can be reversed! But this mistaken idea that untouched land with overage forests is the holy grail of wildlife management is just patently false! That misplaced idealism is what has reduced our game herds and will continue to do so if not reversed!

How much does the roadless rule constrict the landscape that the USFS manages? Could an amended LSR map accomplish more? Where did I say anything is the holy grail of anything,  the reality is conservation is incredibly difficult on a settled landscape and each element has an increased value largely due to their limited nature. 

 Is hunting best under high fence? Why limit it to private? I can tell you I've been on multiple high fence operations and it's damn good hunting,  fact.