west side drop camps

[Ray]

It's my understanding that any  guide who wants to take people into the National Forest have to get some sort of certification in order to do this sort of business. I was told there was a fair amount of red tape and that things were regulated. I think that it is just fine to have drop camps by outfitters or whomever else. Locking out people from public land is the wrong answer. Unless of course they are destroying the land with unacceptable practices/behavior. Horses walking through a meadow a few times to setup a camp seems perfectly acceptable to me. Setting up a camp on a meadow is not the best idea. Hopefully that is avoided. It's easy to point fingers but it's probably best to get all the facts in order before doing so. Otherwise you'll be out on credibility.

[gasman]

Bearpaw, well said  


Houndhunter, I am sorry you got burned, some how to give you such a bad taste for drop camps in wilderness.



I my self have never but would like to go on a drop camp some day (right now i can not afford it).
I think the availablty to hire someone to pack my gear or use there gear, to hunt an area i would not normaly be able to access on my own, is great oppertunity.

I just wish i could afford a drop camp or a fully guided hunt in a wilderness area  

[oneezreiter]

Hound,
I see your point but I do not have the space for livestock and can not afford to take the time off of work to spend a week scouting an area, I get a few weekends before the season starts at best.  Why should I not be allowed to share the experience of a wilderness hunt?  by the time you count in the equipment, livestock, scouting time, milage, and what not it seems to me that a drop camp is a pretty economical way to go.  It is just as much my land as yours, if I do the scouting and have the equipment and bring my father, brother, three cousins, a my uncle, all of which are out of state and I am the only one who did any scouting is that ruining your experience?  I wouldn't mind one of those PM with west side drop info too.

Rick

[huntnfmly]

Hound,
  Are you serious? I am taking my girls on a guided hunt again this year.Should i not be in YOUR woods just because i worked my butt off all yr so we can do that?I understand what your saying there is a lot of people out in the woods but everyone has the right 

[Houndhunter]

your damn right im serious

for one thing big difference between national forest and wilderness, you should know that and maybe you missed what i said? im completly talking about wilderness here, and others dont skim through a reply if your gonna post read what the guy wrote


oneezreiter tell me are you maing a profit if you take your faimly hunting? big diff between taking your family and taking several familys who you dont know for a profit. when you are able to make a profit outa it, things dont go right

Ray have you seen what live stock does to a trial? an over used trail will get torn up in no time, which is what happens when people can put drop camps in. also they can bring in evasive speices, and other lil things but the trail damage is the main thing. so they might not be so much damage the woods, but they do wreck the trails on which you hike on.

few guys have said i dont have time to scout, you think they really did alota scouting? they just put the camps in every basin, taking up all the land. i gaurentee they did not put in tons of time to find a place where the animals will be. if you fell the need to scout around i know any guy can take one weekend to find a spot he likes.  

let me add this, i believe our wilderness areas here on the west side are to small to bring in business like that. maybe have a few avialable for guys that draw speicle permits, but in some areas they take up alot ground.

dont want to bring up the main wilderness i hunt, might be a sponser here who goes there, but i know some guys on here do know where i go and can tell you the same thing. when i pack in on foot there to find some guide set up a drop camp a week before the season started in a area i hunt it sucks. they claim there areas, and more come every year

im not completly oppressed to drop camps as ive said, but right now its outa hand. when you make somthing thats hard easy, more people will come. if you cant take the time to hike in, or bring horses than dont complain. somthings are worth keeping. this changes it to guys who dont want to do the work

go ahead blast away

[oneezreiter]

No there is no profit in family, so you would be OK with 100 new DIY hunters in your wilderness area?  It seems like your real problem is that you feel like there are too many people in the woods.  It doesn't really matter how people get there.  Would you prefer a draw for all tags so you only get a tag every few years? 

[NWWABOWHNTR]

WOW... can't believe this. I do not hsve the property to own pack animals,  and this year after saving for a couple of years and we drew a group bull tag we have opted to do a drop camp back deep into a wilderness area.  Yes it is an area that a few in my group have hunted before on foot.  So you think that this is wrong?  In what way?  THis is a DIY, unguided hunt,  outfitter is dropping us in an area that we requested,  and know.  So because we have an outfitter going to pack our tent,  our gear in and out,  by the way we have opted to walk in because that is what we can afford.... this is wrong in your eyes?  So no one should be allowed into "your" wilderness areas unless they are doing it with their own horses or on foot?  Dude,  be serious here.  I as much as anyone else try to get as far away from the crowds,  try to have an area where no others will be.... that is why we have went with a drop camp deep into a wilderness so the idiots on 4 wheelers won't chase away the elk like happened to us last year.  I respect your right to your opinion,  but vehemently disagree with it.  Oh by the way we won't be in "your" wilderness since we will be in eastern wa....

[mcginnis8127]

It sounds to me like you need to find some where else to hunt or stop whining about drop camps.And if you think that It's making it  too easy well that's just garbage.It is making hunting more accessible yes,but that is a good thing.It brings in more hunters who in turn bring in more money.Money that is used for preservation of public land and game management.So in essence with the anti gun and anti hunting society that we all live in now maybe more hunters in the woods is what we need but not what we all want.

[bearpaw]

Hey Hound,
I honestly can't speak about your particular situation but I have a feeling you are missing some info. If it is as bad as you say, I would ask the local ranger district what is going on. Half a dozen other people have complained about me leaving garbage and damaging the forest over the years. The USFS officers came and investigated and in every case it was just joe slob leaving garbage at his campsite and cutting trees they shouldn't have been cutting. The end result was that I was cleared and the people that had complained were informed about what was really happening. In one case I actually cleaned up a remote rogue campsite just so the forest wouldn't have to do it, and to show the locals that they were misjudging my outfit.

In the forest where I am permitted (and most other forests), each and every commercial campsite must be approved by USFS personnel. Last fall I had the district ranger himself inspect my new base camp site for approval before I could set the camp for the first time.

Part of my area is a small designated wilderness and they only allow me to have 4 campsites within that wilderness area. All of my campsites must be low impact to the public, out of sight as much as possible, only a certain number of use days are allowed, and I must report every single day that each person is on USFS land.

In wilderness areas and most USFS areas only so many horses can be used by an outfitter, camps must be at least 100 feet from any surface water, camps can not be right along a major trail, and tree roots or other vegetation cannot be damaged or removed without USFS approval. Latrine facility requirements do vary from one forest to another. Horses must be fed certified weed-free hay for at least 48 hours in advance of use on USFS lands, and during use on USFS lands. Each year I show my proof of purchase for my certified weed-free hay.

If I failed to conform with all requirements I would lose my license to operate.

Horses are very expensive to keep. I had 7 of my own but was forced to make hard decisions this year and had to sell mine. Yes, I am an outfitter with no horses, however, I am lucky, I have been leasing extra horses for 12 years from another guy who does commercial horseback rides all summer. So I decided we would just lease all our horses from him and save money. So my point is that the average guy just can't justify keeping horses all year for a week of hunting once a year. The average guy is far ahead to go with an outfitter on a guided or drop camp hunt.

Same is true on the water, the average guy can not afford to maintain a quality fishing boat and keep up with the fish movements, you are farther ahead to go with a fishing guide or charter boat a couple times a year and catch fish when you go.

I really would suggest you ask the FS district about what you claim is occuring, it just doesn't sound like something they would approve.
Good Luck

[littlebuf]

this is truly hilarious, im not sure if you realize how ridiculous you sound hound hunter? im not trying to insult you im just pointing out how silly your gripe is. so how would you like everybody to use the public land we all (not just you) pay taxes for? is it ok to wear boots to get back in there or should bare foot be the rule? how bout if i told you that your wrong for hiking around where somebody paid good money for a drop camp? does that sound reasonable

[Ray]

Ray have you seen what live stock does to a trial? an over used trail will get torn up in no time, which is what happens when people can put drop camps in. also they can bring in evasive speices, and other lil things but the trail damage is the main thing. so they might not be so much damage the woods, but they do wreck the trails on which you hike on.

I have seen what hoofed animals can do to a trail. Frankly I don't have a problem with it. If it wasn't for hoofed animals there would be no trails in many places. I don't see them as a scourge. I see them as a scapegoat for people who feel the need to make some ranting complaints most of the time.  It's the factual complaints with evidence against specific parties which is more interesting and actionable.

[Houndhunter]

oneezreiter the thing is guys wont just charge into the wilderness where i go to or atleast the areas im at because its a long walk. the amount of guys double in the wilderness im in when fire danger is in effect and timber companies allow no one on there land, but i get away from them cause most hunt 2-3 miles in at the most. if your gonna throw out an analogy keep it in proportion with what your compareing it to or else you dont get your point across

why dont you read what im saying? NWWABOWHNTR, i've said its getting to be to many. sure have a few, but dont ruin it for the guys that work to hunt that area. you drew a permit, cool but when everyone can be dropped in wether by horses or hell even a heli its gonna overcrowd and area its that simple. if you and others on the site cant see that, im sorry.

i wish they didnt have it at all, however thats me. but having a select few drop camps and makeing it so theres a limited space between each one, while also having areas in each wilderness they cant go would be better. i guess to sum it all up, is they need to be better managed. im not gonna kick a dead horse, feel free to actually read all of each my posts if your trying to understand my opinion

ADD: bette add if you read my first post i jumped on it, didnt know i'd get into a big discussion bout it

littlebuf go shoot another 270lbs blackie

[littlebuf]

just what we need is more bureaucracy and regulation in hunting 

[Ray]

just what we need is more bureaucracy and regulation in hunting 

I agree with that in general. Each specific case may be different. If the law enforcement has the tools to enforce the existing laws then that's exactly what they should do.

[bearpaw]

Hound,
I am trying to offer you a solution.

I am certain that if you go to the ranger district office and tell them you want to file a complaint, they will at least investigate. If it is truly an outfitter breaking the rules he will be brought into compliance. If it is some other hunters that are breaking the rules and they are regulars they will eventually be caught too.

The USFS does not take breaking rules in the wilderness lightly, this is what they are charged with administering, it is one of their reasons for existence.