Liberty and Me...

[surfj9009]

I started this thread as an introduction but decided to make it more of a journal, kind of like the movie Marley and Me. I will randomly post things here about us and I will just share all of our adventures here.
This thread was formally titled "My new pup...."


Meet Liberty, my new pup, or Libby for short:



We got her 2 weeks ago, and she is perfect for us. She was born April 2nd. She is already crate trained, housebroken, and knows sit, down, here, and the sit whistle. She is getting pretty good at returning to me on the retrieve, but still like to try to get me to chase her sometimes. She seems to like the water, because the second day I had her she was going into the water with me and retrieving a dummy for about an hour.

As a side note,  , later that day I was swimming at the end of the dock and trying to entice her to jump off the dock, rather than walk out from the sand like she was used to. She was getting really eager and excited and I think she would have jumped pretty soon, and then my girlfriends mom came over and pushed her into the lake off the end of the dock!!!!!!!!!!1
She came up from under the water and was scared as hell and swam right to me, literally scared *censored*less at this point. She has been hesitant getting into the water ever since. And certainly will not go in without me right there. This really pisses me off and I let her mom have it, and it almost caused a fight between me and my girlfriend. Anyhow, looks like that one day of swimming confidance was completely negated by the girlfriends mom because "She just couldn't help it". Everyone there knew that i wanted her to get comfortable with the water on her own schedule and not be subjected to the "sink or swim" method. Apparantly, her mom did not catch that. (I think that is BS)
I do believe I can overcome this by taking the pup to the lake with a friends lab, who she idolizes, and letting her see how much he enjoys the water. Anyhow, sorry for the random rant, but i know you guys can probably understand my frustration and anger about that incident.

Took her out to the woods today for a walk and she led me straight to some quail from downwind.  Only other time she has been exposed to them was twice at home doing a few retrieves in the yard with some frozen birds. :)She has pointed tweetys in the backyard. Today she gave chase after about 50 geese down by the river here in Spokane. No fear there at all. She was all to eager to try and catch the ducks and geese in Riverfront park.

She does not bark at all at night or whine in her crate, and she even just walks right in when she wants a nap.

i have read several books on training, but can't really decide which method I like best. Gonna probably go with a mixture of the Pointing Lab training manual by Julie Knutsen and the Tritronics retriever book.

Here is where it gets sticky for us, I work out of town for 4 weeks and then I am home for 4 weeks. I have though about sending her for some training while I am gone but have not decided for sure. The good thing is that when i come home I can literally work with her all day, every day for 4 weeks, and while I am gone my SO can work on reinforcing everthing I have taught so far. I would have preferred to get her at a younger age than 12 weeks, but fate had it's way of putting us together, and that's that.

Comments, suggestions, ideas or advice is greatly appreciated.

[RC3]

Nice looking little pup

[mtnseth]

Good looking little dog.  My advice:  Don't sweat it with the girlfriend's mother and swimming thing.  She's still really young.  Those things have a way of working themselves out very quickly with more positive experiences and time.  (I'm talking about your dog, not the mother.)  She'll regain her confidence soon and want to go back out there.  Just keep the sessions short (an hour of retrieving seems like a long time for a young pup) and quit just when she seems to be begging for one more retrieve.  That excitement will carry over and build for the next session.  Although typically not a problem for a lab, over-retrieving with a pup will kill some pointing dogs' enthusiasm for it.  Keep it fun at that age, and don't let it get boring.

Although many will contest this point, I say you lost nothing by waiting until 12 weeks to take her home.  I kind of wish I had waited until 10 or 11 or so weeks with my pup.  I don't think my pup truly learned anything from me that he couldn't have learned with his breeder and littermates from weeks 7-11 or so.  The Wolters-49th day-people are probably rolling their eyes right now, but I'm just offering my observation.  I had a lot of sleepless nights during that time, too, and I'm not sure I really gained anything by getting him at 7 weeks.  Seems like most of the stuff he learned (beginning potty training, etc.), he caught on to because he got a bit older during those initial weeks, not because I taught him. 

For her training, decide what you intend to use her for, then go from there.  Will she primarily be a retriever (ducks, geese, etc.)?  Or do you intend to work her as a steady pointing dog on upland MOST of the time?  If you only hunt upland a few days a year (and waterfowl or whatever the rest), you may want to train her as a retriever and let the dog figure out the pointing thing on her own.  If you're primarily an upland guy and want a dog that holds its points in the field, then get her on birds right away and hold off on the tritronics retrieving thing.  JMHO.  Sounds like she's already a natural retriever and you can dial that in with force fetching later.

If you've got quail nearby, lead her into them on a check cord and watch her response.  Get her excited about the chase, but let her know through experience that she can't catch them and had better point instead.

If you want a retriever that points, James Lamb Free is a classic retriever training book that I always liked.  It's a bit dated, but it's good stuff.  For a more modern approach, I kind of like Justin Tackett's youtube tidbits from "At the Line."  They're short, but offer good advice in an easily digestible portion.  If you want a pointing dog that retrieves, I can send you in that direction as well.  Just send me a PM. 

As far as your schedule, do your best to incorporate the person who will be looking after your dog in your absence into your training. That way they have a better understanding of what you want your dog to do.  Your situation may be a bit confusing for your pup, but she'll probably adapt.  When you return home, don't work her "all day, every day."  Spend time bonding with her every day.  Go on fun outings like fishing trips and field runs and only spend small portions of time training.  I work from home, so I'm with my dog all day.  We constantly bond, but I don't spend more than 15-30 minutes at a time training.  I may have two or three sessions in a day, but they're short.  Some sessions are shorter, some longer.  But there's lots of time in between for the dog to absorb what I'm slowly teaching him.  Always quit while the dog is begging for more, and always quit on a good note. 

[surfj9009]

Thank you for the tips and advice. I certainly did not mean that I would train her "all day, everyday", but should have rather stated that I have that much time available for her if she is up to it. I do plan on doing a lot of fun stuff with her and taking her on long and exciting walks through the woods a lot. As far as the mother incident, i think it will correct itself when she is ready. I think one of the main reasons she was in the lake with me so much the first full day i had her was because there was a 4 month old German Shephard there that was driving her nuts for a while, and she realized that is she was in the water, he was not going to pester her at all. He wouldn't get near her one bit until she started to go ashore.

I think I am really looking to do mostly upland birds but would like to do waterfowl as well, but not primarily waterfowl. 

Last night was nuts with her though!! I have read the Gun Dog book, and I decided that since she was so birdy yesterday I would tie a feather to a fishing pole just to see what she did out of curiosity. She chased and chased for about 5 minutes and then  :yike:WHOA!!! She started to sneak in and gave up a statuesqe point! She kept trying to sneak to it and I would move it further in front of her and she would take a step still pointing, and then pick up her other foot and step forward and hold a point again. This went on for about 10 minutes and she was getting pretty damn good at being patient. I had her holding a point for almost 15 seconds with the wing literally inches from her nose.

Not to bad I suppose considering I have no idea how to train a dog other than by reading books and other peoples expieriences. Today was pretty much just a horse around, BBQ with friend over, and her playing with the neighbors kids kind of day, but tomorrow afternoon I am going to go hiking again for a while with her on a friends 120 acres with know quail and grouse, a couple ponds, and 10's of miles from anybody. Should be fun!!!!!

[mtnseth]

Glad she's showing you she likes to point. 

Here's a little more unsolicited advice: 
Try to let her have as many positive experiences with other dogs as possible.  Dog parks and places where larger, rambunctious dogs may bully or steamroll her will not build a very strong foundation in her socialization.  (I'm thinking of that German Shepherd...If I was in that situation, I would have removed my pup if I couldn't get the GS to leave her alone).  If possible, let her spend time with dogs you know well, or pups with her same age and energy level.  You want a dog that's easy-going, comfortable and confident around other dogs (and peaceful).  Sounds like she's already getting experience with kids.  That's great. Make sure it's always a good experience!

Take the Gun Dog book and put it in a garage sale.  Wolters' Water Dog or Game Dog are decent retriever books, but Gun Dog has kept professional trainers in business since it was printed in the early 60s.  (By that I mean pro trainers get to correct owners' mistakes in ruining their dogs).  JMHO, but the wing-on-the-string thing is for the benefit of us humans, not the dog.  We like seeing our dogs point.  We invite our friends over and show them the dog pointing the wing, too.  Pretty soon you'll take the wing out of the closet and she'll start pointing it before it even hits the ground.  But this is not the objective you're trying to achieve.  Now that she's proven to you she WILL point, put it away.  You don't want a dog that has to see the bird to point it.  Her NOSE is the key to pointing.  Think about it:  You want the scent of a bird to make her lock up...how many pheasants will she see before she smells them? My guess is next to none, because they're all buried in cover anyway.  You don't want a dog that blows by all of the bird scent and won't point until she lays eyes on the bird. 

If you've got access to a field with wild birds, turn her loose and let her chase.  Right now you want her nuts about birds.  Let her bust a covey of quail and give chase.  Before long, she'll get tired and she'll realize that she can't catch them, and she'll freeze when she smells them.  Maybe point, maybe just pause for a second and cat-creep and try to stalk them.  Eventually she'll realize that she can't catch them this way, either, and she'll just stand there until they move or fly. 

If you have access to pigeons, these are the best training birds around.  They won't take the pressure of a dog getting too close before they fly away.  And when they fly, they're gone, just like a real bird.  Planted quail might work at first, until your dog realizes that they're not going to fly very far away and she's probably quick enough to catch them.  Trust me, don't use pen-raised quail as your primary training bird. Your dog will learn not to respect them.

As far as instruction goes, I've read most of the books out there regarding training pointing dogs.  Most of them focus on gimmicks to speed up the training process.  Actually, I think these writers think up these gimmicks because they need something to differentiate themselves from the other books on the shelves.  The best instruction I've found has come from videos.  I've seen almost all of these, too.  Don't waste your money on the 45 minute ones.  They're too generic.  Pony up the cash and get a real video series like the Hickox or Perfect Start/Finish set.  I really like the Perfect Start / Perfect Finish series from Perfection Kennels (http://www.gundogsupply.com/pestpefisetd1.html).  It's expensive, long and occasionally repetitive, but hey, so is dog training.  The video goes through the whole process, and you'll see dogs advance from completely green to standing birds in a field.  What I like is that it's a fairly honest approach...these aren't broke dogs going through the motions.  The video shows many different reactions to the training, both desirable and undesirable.  And they give you advice on how to respond when things don't go as planned.  They use an e-collar, lots of pigeons and a bird launcher.  So be prepared to spend some dough if you use their technique.

Join a local pointing dog group and spend some time on other gun dog web sites and fish for advice there, too.  I like versatiledogs.com and gundogforum.com.  Many folks with way more experience than me hanging out in there.

--Seth

[surfj9009]

I appreciate your comments. As far as the GS goes that was tough to deal with. it was the 4th of July at the lake. My family was invited to a family friends cabin for the day. It was only the first full day I had her and I couldn't leave her at home. I hated having her there because that effin' GS was a nippy effer! Everyone was saying, "oh, he's only 4 months and he is teething" He will stop nipping. BS!!

Libby has already learned how much pressure to put on the hand when she is in nibble mode. The problem was the owners, not my family, made excuses for their lack of discipline. The dog even nips at their 2 year old daughter making her cry, and has broken the skin several times before. I did intervene several times when their dog was being too aggressive to Libby. I actually clamped my hand on it's muzzle and made it whelp from feeling it's teeth a few times, which basically made the dog leave for a while, but then it would come back. Eventually they kenneled the dog and the problem went away. But I was right there with her at all times and she learned very quickly that I am dad and I will take care of her. Had it been any situation other than a family get together for the holiday I would have left for sure. It was a 2.5 hour drive to get there and I did not know the dog would be there. I did take off with Libby quite a few times and nap in a field nearby to allow her some more reprieve.

My buddy has an awesome black lab and she has spent a lot of time around him. They play several times a week and she has also been around another 2 yo lab who is friendly and a puppy boxer, so she is definitely getting more good socialization time than bad.

Has anybody read Julie Knudson's book "Training The Pointing Labrador"? I just got it in the mail. I ordered it the first day i saw her point a bird and I just got it today. It seems like a really good book. Any thoughts or experiences with her teachings?

You are right about the feather on the pole and I appreciate you making me look at it another way. I already stopped playing fetch with dead birds a few days ago. I know she is birdy, and it is time to put her on a lot of the real thing.

Today we went to meet with a local trainer and introduce her to some pigeons. As soon as he pulled them from the pen she was trying to get them from his hands. We took 3 and put them in launchers, and then he grabbed one of his steadiest GSP's. We spent about 5 minutes walking the field and his dog got on point for the first one. Libby walked around and didn't pick the scent up until she was downwind. Bam! Bird let loose and she marked it a long ways before she started walking again. She jumped a little when it launched but never took her eyes of the bird.
Bird number two: she found it right away and went straight into a point about 4 feet away from the launcher. Bam! Bird let loose and no catch.

Bird number three, she seemed to study the other dog when she came upon him on point, as if to say "Why are you stretched so far forward?". She was about 15 feet away when she picked up the scent and as she got closer, she heard it as well and froze solid, but did not point. After about 5 seconds he launched it and again, she watched it fly a long circle before it went out of site.

That was the end of the field exercise, and we walked back up to his home. There was a water feature in the yard that had a fountain and both dogs jumped right in and splashed around for a bit. We didn't even say a word to her or try to get her in, she just went right for it. Whew! Good to see that for sure. It was just deep enough that she got her whole body wet and was still on foot IN MOST SPOTS, so she was half swimming and half walking, but 100% playing and having a good time drinking from the small waterfall coming over the rocks. 

She handled the day pretty well I think. We are going back on Monday for more birds with some gun introduction at a distance. Shots will be fired when the bird launches so her focus will be the bird and the shot will be in the back of her mind.

As I sit here on the back patio typing, she is busy trying to catch the moths in the yard. I can see her thinking "Look at these tiny birds! I can't catch most of them either, but *censored* I am going to keep trying "

It was kind of funny watching her eye the squirrel today as it walked across the power line. I think that was the first squirrel she has seen. I think she would have gave chase if she could because she ran as close as she could get to it the instant she saw it.

She has developed quite the protective little bark/growl too when there is something she hears in the neighborhood that she doesn't think is right.....

But then again.....she also got startled tonight by her own shadow while we were playing in the grass. And of course, she still chases her tail and barks/growls at herself in the mirror in the spare bedroom. I am surprised she can even see through all the nose slime residue and tongue slobber on it.

Basically...........I am not quite sure if she has what it takes to be a good watch dog, but I think she can hunt!!!

[Curly]

Liberty sure is a beautiful dog.

[surfj9009]

A few More pictures after she woke from a nap........

[WDFW-SUX]

thats a great looking pup!

[surfj9009]

Well, just a quick update. Last night she went out into the field with the trainer and pointed 3 of 3 birds, used her nose well, and showed no reaction still to the starter pistol.

I'm stoked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[surfj9009]

And a few more of her being lazy and a couple in the field....

[surfj9009]

Well the trainer says she is doing well on the birds still. She is only seeing him once a week right now, just to keep putting birds in front of her. She is finding every bird on her own still with now help from him. She has really started to want to flush them so he has been working on breaking that habit lately as well as styling her point a little bit, and showing her how to honor another dog in the field(one of his). She still has no reaction to the starter pistol. I just joined the Spokane Bird Dog Association and the North Idaho Retriever Club with the hopes of meeting some people to do some weekend training with or travel to a hunt test or something.

I watched the perfect start perfect finish DVD series, (thanks for the recommendation), and I look forward to getting home to begin whoa training. She is pretty good already with heeling so we shall try to move forward a bit.

I am not shure when to start e-collar training but I don't think it will be too long from now. Starting next week i will be on vacation for 4 weeks and so I will have a lot of time to work with her.

She is almost 5 months now and weighs 46 pounds!! She is getting big fast!!

[Buschingc]

Looks like things are going well. Good luck on your training.. Shes a beautiful dog...