WDFW Deer Herd Management

[colockumelk]

This is in response to bearpaws post.  I'm not trying to pick on bearpaw.  I just saw something I disagreed with and then went on a rant that got fairly long.  I dont' want to jack this thread so I started a new one.  This is why I believe our deer herd isn't anywhere near it's potential.

However, shane is absolutely correct, the WDFW could help us rebound deer numbers faster by reducing antlerless harvest and eliminating all 2nd deer tags for a few years until numbers rebound.

Not necessarily.  Just because you have a alot of deer doesn't mean you have a healthy or good deer herd.  What is more important than numbers is your buck to doe ratio.  Just because you have a ton of deer doesn't meen that you have a good deer herd.  Many people (including our WDFW) use the deer or elk numbers to represent the health of the herd.  This couldn't be farther from the truth.  It is far more important to have a healthy buck to doe ratio.

Studies have shown that the average mature buck will only breed 5-8 does a year.  This is why game bios and game departments across the nation manage for healthy buck to doe ratios.  Which is 1 buck to 5 or 6 does (1:5-6)  They have shown that if you mange for this good buck to doe ratio your population will actually rebound faster than if you only kill buck and leave the does alone.  This is because if you have a bunch of does that are not being bred because your ratio is say 1:15-20 (much like our state) then you have a bunch of does that are not contributing to the herd and are just sucking up resources.  If a big winter comes along (such as in NE Washington) there are alot less resources to get the deer through the winter and you will have a huge winter kill off.  Also with more deer you have a greater chance of disease.

Now our state takes the opposite stance.  (Although compare our hunting to states such as MT, CO, IO, NE, KA)  If you have low deer numbers then stop harvesting does even if the ratio is 1:20.  This is why it takes forever for a herd to recover.  Often our herds never recover.  Just ask some of the old timers (For some of you just ask yourself )  Successfull deer properties and successfull states allow a harvest of 5 does for every buck.  This maintains a healthy buck to doe ratio of 1:5.  Ask any managment officer for an area in states such as Kansas or Iowa and they will tell you that in order to maintain a healthy deer herd they need at least three times more does killed off than bucks. 

Our states deer hunting sucks all around because the WDFW refuses to look at what works and implement tried and true strategies.  Quality Deer Managment works.  Look at other states.  While yes our state is not the worst in the world.  We could have far better deer hunting if our state would change it's managment strategies. 

So in closing I would say in many areas there needs to be alot more does being harvested.  Such as in the LT Murray.  It is not uncommon to see 30-40 does in a day and only see one legal buck plus maybe two other non legal bucks.  One might say oh wow I saw alot of deer today.  The herd must be rebounding.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  This herd is unhealthy.  THe buck to doe ratio is way out of wack. 

[tip]

I've heard this strategy many times and this is the most well written arguement I've read so far.  Nice job, what are your sources?

[Bigshooter]

The problem with managing Washington like the states in the midwest is overall deer numbers.  It's not uncommon to have states back east with a whitetail population of a million plus deer.  The reason they have so many deer in the midwest is all the agriculture.  Killing does is to control population in the midwest not necessarily to control buck to doe ratios.

[bearpaw]

Clockum I think most people with any game management knowledge, myself included agree with most of your arguments. I wasn't saying doe hunts are bad, you must have misunderstood, I am all for them with the correct amount of doe tags issued.

NE Washington normally has 200 to 2000 doe tags issued in each unit up here, plus we have antlerless harvest by bow, muzzleloader, unlimited youth antlerless harvest, and unlimited senior antlerless harvest, which I totally agree with on normal years. We usually kill more does in our units than most other units in the state have total deer taken.

Right now there is not a lack of habitat, there is a lack of deer, two years with fewer doe tags will help. The WDFW has already made large scale cutbacks in doe permits, so apparently they agree. Trust me they do not scale back doe permit sales unless they really feel the need. They sell as many licenses as possible.

You must remember there is still unlimited antlerless harvest by archers, and modern firearm junior and senior hunters. There will still be hundreds and probably thousands of does killed in NE WA.

Perhaps you have a doe problem where you live, but our herds are definitely not in a 20:1 ratio up here. You have taken my comment clear out of context to apply it to the situation in your area.

[bearpaw]

One thing that does not work is to lump management practices into one philosophy for the whole state which has 3 different species and many different hunters who each want different management goals.

Have you attended game commission meetings throughout the state? That is the best thing a person can do to see the complexity of managing our herds and satisfying the sportsfolks in this state. You will see dozens of people speak and each has his own recommendation for what the WDFW must do.

I am glad to stand up for the WDFW on this issue and say they have no easy job balancing all this. Many of us here on H-W are focused on management for quality animals and optimum herds, but if you attend Commission meetings, especially in our large population centers, most people want the most number of days in the field every year and they want an opportunity to harvest any buck or bull or antlerless. The masses do not want a lot of trophy hunting management. Since the WDFW manages for the common good, they are pretty much on target with most of their management even though the goals do not necessarily parallel with some of our wishes. Basically they are doing what many hunters want....

I do think they could have a few more trophy deer areas without upsetting the balance of pleasing the masses.

[Skyvalhunter]

Yea a few more trophy deer areas would be nice but you won't see that happening during this current 4 year plan!!

[Buckmark]

The WDFW does not manage there deer herds, they manage money, If managment for heathier herds, better animal quality (ie: trophy quality) and increase in numbers then they would implement a tag quota system for certain areas or the entire state, make hunters chose a species and limit the tags for a certain area therfore controlling the harvest better and being able to manage an area or herd better. But that would not put as much money in the coffers so that will not happen.
The 3pt rule for mule deer does not and is not working, more 2 points have been shot and been left to waste, and some of those tag holders have gone on to take another buck, that does not help at all.
Culling of does can help build a better buck to doe ratio and herd health, but only if the harvest of that area of bucks is also controlled.

[colockumelk]

bearpaw I appologize if you felt I took your quote out of context.  That was not my intention.  My post was just related to that little part of your overall post.  So again if you felt offended I appologize.

I also agree you can't lump what works for Iowa with what works for Washington.  However the basic principle will work.  In Central Washington they do not give out any doe permits.  No one is allowed to harvest does.  This is  because we've see a sharp decline in deer numbers.  However the WDFW in it's infinite wisdom still has a general buck season.  So lots of bucks get shot every year and the does continue to live.  So what you have is a buck to doe ratio of at least 1:20.  Most of the does you see do not have fawns.  Our herd is very unhealthy.  And the bucks that are breeding are alot of 2pts.  We also have alot of very large 2points that are 4 and 5 years old. 

The Mule Deer plan in Central Washington has been a complete and utter failure.  This is one example. 

[colockumelk]

Oh one more thing.  In this brain storm I'm not trying to create some monster buck paradise in this state.  I'm trying to advocate proper deer herd management.  Where the buck to doe ratio is 1:5 like it's supposed to be.  The WDFW has failed miserably in that aspect.  That should be their goal.  Not to please the majority.  Why?  Because the majority don't know WTF they're talking about.  Also if they would manage for a 1:5 ratio it would please the massess.  Because the ones that just want a long hunting season so they can blast whatever comes along would be happy to shoot a doe. 

The ones I'm more concerned with pleasing are people much like most of us who are on this site.  Who actually get out and work for a deer and want some quality hunting for once.  Rather than the pathetic days they call a season in this state.  I'll have to agree with a previous guy on here.  All they care about is $$$$$$$$.  That's what they manage for is $$$$$.  And hell they can't even do that.  They're broke as hell.  

[spikehunter]

Colockumelk you are right on your last post for a 1-5 thru1-8 buck to doe ratio. However I believe they tried a little bit of that in central WA.( With permit only hunting in certian gmu's.) The one problem they ran into was after the season ended a certain type of people, say the treaty of 1855 says we can hunt here. The L.T.Murray was one of those areas

[colockumelk]

I remember that.  It was GMU 342.  I have heard that that was one reason why they stopped it.  Another reason was a ton of guys complained to the WDFW that they couldn't hunt there anymore so the WDFW gave into the pressure. 

Sometimes the massess need to be ignored.  Especially when it comes to responsible wildlife managment.  I know that pissess some people off when I say that.  But I believe it's true.  The most hunters could care less about the wellfare of the elk or deer.  They just want to go up and sling lead.  Even if that meens the destruction of a herd  (IE the Colockum elk herd)  Groups such as most members on this site and others such as RMEF want something more.  I believe that most of us on here want something more than just simply x-amount of days to go into the hills with a gun.  We want a quality experience with a real opportunity to harvest an animal. 

I truly believe that the WDFW has lost it's way and does not hold us in their best interests.  WHen I say this I don't mean the bios or the wardens.  I meen the council.  I was appalled at the meeting in Ellensburg when they were asked what they're fishing/hunting backgrounds were.  One guy doesn't even hunt.  One only hunts in Montana.  Two only fish, one just started to hunt.  This is who represents us.  It's BS.

[bearpaw]

No offense taken at all and no need to apologize at all. I just wanted to point out the differences, sort of an apples and oranges issue. Sounds like you have a serious problem in your area and I wish you the best of luck trying to fix the problem.

Mule Deer are hurting all over the west except some areas east of the Rockies. In eastern Montana we see 10 to 20 bucks per day all the time on my ranch leases. Goes against what they try to say is the problem in many other areas. For example: We have all heard about humans being such a stress on wintering mule deer, but in eastern MT the mule deer eat with the cows all winter while the ranchers drive around them with the tractor. In eastern MT nearly every little town sponsors coyote hunt contests so hundreds of coyotes are being taken every winter to keep numbers in check. Many Bio's in other states say predators are not a significant factor. It appears to me that winter feeding and predator hunting makes a difference.

I do remember driving through nearby Ferry County in the 60's, hundreds of mule deer could be counted in a day. Even Stevens County and Pend Orrielle had lots of muleys. WDFW had feeding stations, coyotes were hunted hard for their hides, and cougar required at least a week long hunt to find one. Several factors have changed a lot since that time, have some of the same changes occured in your area?

We have a much different scenario in NE WA today with all our whitetails, so I don't know for sure what to recommend for sure in support of your cause. Better to let you guys who live in and know your area make the recommendations.....good luck.  

I almost forgot to ad: our county population was probably half of what it is today....

[Wacenturion]

One thing that does not work is to lump management practices into one philosophy for the whole state which has 3 different species and many different hunters who each want different management goals.

Have you attended game commission meetings throughout the state? That is the best thing a person can do to see the complexity of managing our herds and satisfying the sportsfolks in this state. You will see dozens of people speak and each has his own recommendation for what the WDFW must do.

I am glad to stand up for the WDFW on this issue and say they have no easy job balancing all this. Many of us here on H-W are focused on management for quality animals and optimum herds, but if you attend Commission meetings, especially in our large population centers, most people want the most number of days in the field every year and they want an opportunity to harvest any buck or bull or antlerless. The masses do not want a lot of trophy hunting management. Since the WDFW manages for the common good, they are pretty much on target with most of their management even though the goals do not necessarily parallel with some of our wishes. Basically they are doing what many hunters want....

I do think they could have a few more trophy deer areas without upsetting the balance of pleasing the masses.

Bearpaw makes an excellent point....but just as varied as the wishes of the general public, so are the wishes and pet management philosophies of individual field biologists and their bosses...the regional game biologist in WDFW.  To understand how WDFW management works you first have to visualize six (6) WDFW administration regions all with different and sometimes similar big game species.  For this discussion we'll use deer.  Because the individual field biologist say in the southern part of the Spokane region...Whitman, Asotin, Garfield, Columbia and Walla Walla wants to manage mule deer or whitetails a certain way is no guarantee the field biologist who has responsibility in the northern half...Spokane, Ferry, Stevens and Pend O., want to do it that way.  Then couple that with the views of their boss and you start to see differences occuring in management within the region by county or group of counties.

Now lets broaden that picture across the rest of eastern Washington...the Ephrata and the Yakima regions.  That adds four (4) more geographic areas....north and south of each and also six (6) additional biologists who are responsible for management of mule deer and whitetails...in the case of whitetails at least in the north part of region 2...Okanogan county.

Now lets broaden again and include the Game Manager in Olympia and his underling...the deer manager into the final product.  Then lets add the Assistant Director for Wildlife Management and eventually the Commission.  Along the way add a bunch of people within WDFW from enforcement, fisheries whatever that also have an opinion on a specific area....are you starting to get a sense of where we are going?   Wonder what Colockumelk is trying to get across?  Perhaps WDFW doesn't really have a good consistent management approach.

What happens is that the initial proposal from an individual field biologist is put forth and if it makes it through without opposition, it is what is put in place as far as management of say mule deer within a group of counties.  If however the proposal meets with opposition along the way, it comes out differently.  Initial proposals for the most part are a product of the biologist's individual view of the deer world...add in some ego in some cases and you have it.  May not necessarily be the best, but in his mind it is.

Problem is, in WDFW's decentralized world you create far too many chiefs and far to many chief like ego's.  There is not the required level of consistency to properly manage anything the way it should be managed.  Far too territorial....every bio, every agent, and so on within an area think that it, (it being their area and their responsibilities) and all decisions pertaining to and within it, is solely theirs.  They tend to forget who the resource belongs to....we the public.

Hope I didn't confuse the issue, but with everyone trying to figure out what should or should not happen by WDFW...you first have to understand what you think, in most cases, means very little in the overall picture.  Oh...you get some tidbits from time to time...but that's really more a diversion than management. Now before you jump down my throat...I'm generalizing...not all WDFW bio's or employees are egomaniacs....but enough are to screw up your chance of getting the best management possible.  Fact.  Just the nature of the system.  Staff, or at least those with the power to make policy, like the status quo....the way it is....as they would lose power under a centralized WDFW and matching management approach.  That takes a bunch of chiefs out of the equation of approval....which is a good thing.    

 

[colockumelk]

I have no idea why I started this rant.  Can't even remember anymore.  I think the basis of what I was getting at is the WDFW does practise good deer herd managment.  THey manage for tag sales and not quality herd managment.  Also I know for a fact that most of what the bios tell the commission goes in one ear and out the other.  Unfortunately our WDFW is run by people who know nothing about managmnet or hunting.  It's too bad we couldn't privatize the WDFW and take the government aspect out of it.  Maybe have government oversite but not run by the government.  We'd have quality hunting once again and the WDFW would not be in debt. 

It's very frustrating when you see a problem such as the buck to doe ratio in my area and you know exactly how to fix the problem, and when it's so simple and obvious.  And then have the governing group do the complete opposite and continue to do that and to see the problem get worse and worse.  And then to know that you can't do anything about it.   

[bearpaw]

Wacenturion thanks for adding all that info, I agree completely. I really do think there are some great people in WDFW but obviously there must be some who are part of the problem as there would be with any large group of people.

colockumelk the most important thing is that you care about the resource. If more people cared about the resource we might have many more deer, elk, etc.

The problem is so complex, basically it's a beauracracy of it's own. The best way to make a difference is to get involved with organizations which do get the ear of the commission. Unfortunately, a single person has little impact. There are already organizations in WA which are fairly effective, you can get contact info for some of them here: http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,31831.0.html

They have a system in this state for establishing policy and seasons and to be effective at all, you need to learn how to use their system to accomplish your goals, and then you may still be ineffective, just remember, it won't be easy to make changes.   

One more thing, if you get rid of the WDFW Commission you remove the opportunity for true citizen input, that would be a huge loss to the citizens of Washington. There are more sportsfolks and groups than you can imagine who have put forth a huge amount of effort to keep a Wildlife Commission in Washington so that "We the People" actually are heard by the WDFW.