Wolf Chat with the DFW in Seattle

[haus]

"illegal hunting"  Thats like calling a robbery..... "illegal money withdrawing" lol.

[Curly]

Thanks Dave for going and giving input.......and for updating us on what was said.

[WDFW-SUX]

Thats so depressing... I guess out of state apps start soon.  I dont think there is a future in washington for hunters.

[JoeVon]

Thanks for the report Little Dave, that meeting must have been like a living hell to sit through!

[Special T]

WOW are they working hard to cram this down our gullet or what!  They don't have an answer as to how they are gona pay for it? Hmmm must be that ever increasing number of hunting and fishing lic they are selling due to thier great management

[Curly]

Thats so depressing... I guess out of state apps start soon.  I dont think there is a future in washington for hunters.

That is what I am starting to think as well.  I was thinking about giving up on applying in Oregon becuase of their increased fees, but maybe I'll have to start thinking about giving up on hunting in WA.......and save my money for Oregon....

[wolfbait]

I think Oregon is going to be as bad as Washington, maybe not right away, but they had wolves dumped on them same as Wa. before new wolf pack BS.

[Curly]

Yeah, I forgot about that............  

[Little Dave]

I don't like going into town, but I felt that I should for this.  You are right it was a bit of a disappointment. 

The plan is way off track due in large part I figure to two outspoken stakeholder groups capitalizing the development of the plan.  The financing proposal is crude.  What kind of financial estimate is "somewhere between $300,000 to $800,000 per year?"  What does it mean to "do better management?"  This sounds more like a plan that was put together at the last minute rather than the result of two years of thoughtful discussions with peer state wildlife departments, the state auditor, and all stakeholder groups.

The does state needs a plan.
A plan that it can afford to implement.
A plan that is flexible and will adapt to unknown problems and succeses.
A plan that represents and respects all stakeholders.

Wolf enthusiasts and stockmen are represented in the current documentation.
Missing from the plan is evidence that there were substantial discussions considering the needs of hunters, small business owners that depend on hunting, the tribes, law enforcement, the state attorney general, and the state auditor.

My recommendation is to take some of the structure produced from this draft, thank the wolf group for their work, dismiss them, and form a new group representing all stakeholders which will consider matters of finance, monitoring, specific habitat improvements, coordination with agencies, and adjustments to the law which are needed (such as eliminating firearms restricted areas where potentially habituated wolves will be a safety threat and serious penalties for individuals found to be habituating wolves).

[wolfbait]

I don't like going into town, but I felt that I should for this.  You are right it was a bit of a disappointment.  

The plan is way off track due in large part I figure to two outspoken stakeholder groups capitalizing the development of the plan.  The financing proposal is crude.  What kind of financial estimate is "somewhere between $300,000 to $800,000 per year?"  What does it mean to "do better management?"  This sounds more like a plan that was put together at the last minute rather than the result of two years of thoughtful discussions with peer state wildlife departments, the state auditor, and all stakeholder groups.

The does state needs a plan.
A plan that it can afford to implement.
A plan that is flexible and will adapt to unknown problems and succeses.
A plan that represents and respects all stakeholders.

Wolf enthusiasts and stockmen are represented in the current documentation.
Missing from the plan is evidence that there were substantial discussions considering the needs of hunters, small business owners that depend on hunting, the tribes, law enforcement, the state attorney general, and the state auditor.

My recommendation is to take some of the structure produced from this draft, thank the wolf group for their work, dismiss them, and form a new group representing all stakeholders which will consider matters of finance, monitoring, specific habitat improvements, coordination with agencies, and adjustments to the law which are needed (such as eliminating firearms restricted areas where potentially habituated wolves will be a safety threat and serious penalties for individuals found to be habituating wolves).

(The financing proposal is crude.  What kind of financial estimate is "somewhere between $300,000 to $800,000 per year?"  What does it mean to "do better management?")

I am sure that 800,000 plus per year will be more like it., quite sure that they know this also. Washington will be a more costly state to manage wolves in do to the fact that we do not have as much open space, more people pupulation, more conflicts with the wolves.  

 (What does it mean to "do better management?")

Does any one here have any idea what better management means? Take the Methow Valley for instance, when we no longer have a deer herd large enough to support the wolves, what then will they be managing? When the elk herd down on in the Blue's is gone, what will be the better management? In Idaho, lolo pass where the wolves have slaughtered the elk herds there, where was the better managment.

The wolf groups already have a damn good idea of what a lot of wolves in Washington will be like, they aren't going into this blind, this started in Yellowstone back in 1995. The defenders of wildlife don't give a damn about the wolves, wildlife or people that will be going through the changes that the the wolves will bring.

When they went and got these wolves up in Canada, Bangs said they wanted a wolf that could really kill the elk. Bangs and defenders of wildlife were and still are very proud of their Canadian wolves, not for the sake of the wolves, but for the damage that they have done and will do. The more controversy over the wolves the more money defenders of wildlife can suck out of the ignorant. In the end the predator phase is all about $$$$$$. As you have seen wdfw don't seem to be concerned about the game herds.

[luvtohnt]

(such as eliminating firearms restricted areas where potentially habituated wolves will be a safety threat and serious penalties for individuals found to be habituating wolves).

I don't know a farmer alive today who bothers with the firearm restriction when it comes to their stock. They all just shoot what ever needs to be shot and go on with their day. I don't think they would hesitate to kill wolves either, once they are legal of course.

I especially like your last paragraph about reforming the group. Maybe not dismissing the current one but adding to it to encompass the other stakeholders also. Something I have wondered is there a financial gain to having a management plan in place or are they just trying to jump the gun?

Brandon

[Little Dave]

Yes, at the end of the day, it's all about money.

I believe the urgency stems from the concern about keeping the cattlemen engaged in the discussion.  With no wolf plan in place, there will be few or no state payouts either.  It is likely that without some minimal accommodation for the cattlemen, the cattlemen's lobby would be too formidable to overcome.  So this is the most cost-effective way they have to meet their objective here.

I wouldn't be too surprised if part of the research component of an approved plan is outsourced to this group.  It will be handy for them to bring in at least a quarter million dollars a year to help them with their fundraising and lawsuit activities here and elsewhere.

Back to the money issue, there's no reason at all to engage hunters.  So far, we do not pose a threat.  There's no legal challenge and there's no lobby.  Instead, their plan is to use our money for their purpose preservation rather than conservation activity.  The P-R excise taxes that we pay, and a substantial part of our hunting license fees will be used for this wolf program.

Ideally, I would like to see the law changed so that all hunting license revenue and excise taxes collected are prioritized for conservation of game species.  The fees that we pay should not be used for any part of the wolf plan unless wolves are classified as a big game species with a plan in place to hunt the wolves.

[Special T]

Follow the $$$$

[wolfbait]

(such as eliminating firearms restricted areas where potentially habituated wolves will be a safety threat and serious penalties for individuals found to be habituating wolves).

I don't know a farmer alive today who bothers with the firearm restriction when it comes to their stock. They all just shoot what ever needs to be shot and go on with their day. I don't think they would hesitate to kill wolves either, once they are legal of course.

I especially like your last paragraph about reforming the group. Maybe not dismissing the current one but adding to it to encompass the other stakeholders also. Something I have wondered is there a financial gain to having a management plan in place or are they just trying to jump the gun?

Brandon

You mean when its legal us folks that are having livestock problems with wolves, we will then shoot them? I tell you right now, there are a whole bunch of ranchers that have been taking care of their wolf problems on their own for along time, the new wolf pack of 08 is mostly for people who live in the city. Washington has had wolves for quite a few years now. This bullsh$t that we have to put up with an animal that is not endangered, is just that bullsh$t.


As far as reforming the group, I think it's only fair since most of them are pro-wolf anyway. Why not form an unbiase group and take input from everyone then write the plan from that. I would think that would be a bit more fair. The wolf plan that we end up with the way it is going, will only mean that we will have more wolves before they sue to stop delisting.

[WDFW-SUX]

This thred just gets more depressing by the day...800k for wolf management? what a disaster.