Free: Contests & Raffles.
Males, on average, weigh 130 lbs Funny that the LARGEST wolf harvested in MT was 117 lbs...what gives? Ten to twenty years down the road, hydatid disease will raise its head, in particular in persons who as toddlers crawled over floors walked over by people and dogs carrying in hydatid eggs from the outside. It's been ~15 years since introduction...where is this horrible pandemic worm? I've heard a lot of people compare wolves to those nice little neighborhood puppy dogs. The number of people who have been attacked by wolves is growing. The number who have been killed is also growing. In his letter to Bangs, Graves pointed out that people in certain parts of Siberia do not venture outside at night because, if they do, their odds of being attacked by a wolf are substantial. Here is part of an e-mail from a Washingtonian, It's true that wolves in Siberia attack people...had they introduced wolves from Siberia I would be nervous. How many attacks have these introduced wolves been responsible for in the US? "I can tell you I have had firsthand experience with these wolves in Washington, we have had them looking in our house windows, they have killed deer within a 100 yards of our house, I have shot at them to scare them off and they turn and lope right at me going past me at 50 yards. These wolves are not afraid of people and they are huge. We don't go out at night to let the dogs pee without taking a big flashlight and gun, I spend many nights at the barns watching out for our stock when the wolves are in close to us. One of the reasons that the wolf diseases will spread and be easy to come in contact with will be that there is too high of a population of wolves." Pictures please...I think I've heard this "tame as a housecat" discussion before but somehow there are never pictures to show these wolves so close to the house...what gives? If they're so close and tame take a picture. If a Canadian Gray Wolf can crush the rib bones of a deer, just how safe do you truly believe you are if you come face to face with this predator without the means to defend yourself? If three wolves are not afraid to take on the majestic Grizzly, do you think they are afraid to take you on? Wait a minute...I thought they were in your yard with mundane regularity- how have you survived so long against those odds? Saveelk is BS propaganda and is about as accurate with facts as the PETA website. I'm not really pro wolf, but I appreciate factual information to make an informed desision. I also see them as another big game animal, not a bloodthirsty killer. They do what predators do... I think you need to change your handle to something less like a hunter of coyotes and more like a paid up in full member of PETA because you sound a lot more like an animal rights guy than a hunter. If you were really a hunter you would not be ragging on things that you are not 100% sure of such as bickering about a few pounds of weights of wolves. Maybe you should do a little homework before your so quick to condemn things that are said against this non native predator introduced by Wolf advocates who conveniently left out all the diseases and parasites wolves carry when they wrote up the EIS. There is a documented weight of this subspecies the Mackenzie valley wolf that weighed 175 pounds. That is documented. It was taken in Alaska. And you must think wolves from Siberia speak Russian and Wolves from Canada speak english or French I presume because you sure seem to think siberian wolves act differently than North American wolves. What is your basis for that?? You are obviously one of those raised on Walt Disney and can't see past what the enviro-nazi animal rights people have been shoving inside your head. I'm guessing you live dead center of some big liberal city because you sure act like someone who got their knowledge from inside the concrete jungle. I believe wolfbait in his claims of a lot of wolves having no fear of humans. I went to high school with a girl who has had wolves pop up in front of her at under 30 yards and howl, and not run away. She has had them parallel her at 30 or 40 yards while on her horse, all the while pacing her and showing no fear. Can't say the same for her horse though. They routinely case her property looking for an easy victim in one of her pet dogs. They come and crap all over her porch and property marking her house as their territory. Does that sound like a cowering afraid animal? I have scoured save our elks site and comparing them to PETA in terms of fact checking really tells me you are a wolf in sheeps clothing, er, I mean an anti in hunting clothing. Your transparency seems pretty clear to me. Any true hunter would not condemm so easily and callously. What pray tell is on save our elk that you think is total B.S. ?? I am really curious to know becasue I have looked the site over well and I don't think they are trying to deceive anyone with lies. Maybe it's all the videos, I assume you think they are all fake? There is one in there pertaining to your comment about wolves not being able to crush bones with their jaws. I will bet that is true although I have not done research on that but you can bet I will. Check out the video where the pack of wolves catch a slightly to long in lingering coyote at full stride. Considering that they literally rip the poor thing in half in about 2 seconds that kind of tells me they have pretty good jaws on them and a little bit of strength. And last but not least, you, if indeed you really do coyote hunt, maybe you had better start reading up on E. Granulosus and E. Multilocularis,, (the little tape worm.) Bear in mind to be sure to believe everything the state biologists and Head wolf guy Ed Bang says about them. "they are no big deal," then you can go about your merry little way when your in the woods and not worry one bit about this happy go lucky little worm that won't hurt you in the least. Or maybe you will look at the research from those who do not fly by a political agenda and you will see what this beautiful little cestode is capable of. You might even find out that it can take any where from 2 to 15 years to manifest itself inside your body. That could be one reason why were not seeing a lot of people with it yet. How would you like a grapefruit sized cyst (ball of tapeworms) on one of your lungs or on your liver from E. Granulosus. Theres another one though not readily found yet in our wolves, it might just be a matter of time for E. multilocularis to be transferred from more northern voles and fox. This is a real nice worm. If you get this and are not diagnosed within 5 years 70% of those infected will die. So all your talk about things that don't happen or have never happened is a naieve way of thinking considering how short a period of time the wolf has been down here. As you see the numbers soar you will see these problems manifest themselves. And yes, it's just a matter of time before someone is ripped to shreds and eaten or "sport killed," another thing wolves love to do but I suppose you think that is all propaganda also. I really feel sorry that real hunters have to put up with people like you who portray themselves as hunters or sportsmen. People like you with that kind of an attitude do hunters a great disservice by cow towing to the ideals of the anti's, the misinformed, and their lies and half truths. It's sad to see you have bought into the disney version of the wolf so deeply. There are many reasons this country and most every other country that has had wolves in the past got rid of them. Those who pay no attention to history are doomed to repeat it. You definitly seem to have drunk the koolaid. If you really do hunt I feel sorry for you and your biased way of thinking. Together we stand, divided we fall..[/color]
A well written artical http://www.westernwolves.org/index.php/hunting-in-wolf-countryWild Lands, Wolves and Wapitiby Corey Fisher, Montana HunterI didn’t grow up around wolves, or elk. I was raised in rural southern Michigan where the biggest wild canines were coyotes and the whitetail deer—while corn fed and fat—were nothing compared to elk. It was farm country and the big patches of timber were only 40 acres. A desire for open spaces and big country took me to college in northern Wisconsin, where the Chequamegon National Forest served as my introduction to our precious public lands heritage and also my first encounter with wolves.While deer hunting the fall of my freshman year, I was watching the sunset and waited for a buck to come out of a cedar swamp when a sound from a couple ridges away sent shivers up my spine. These were not coyotes yapping as I was used to, but honest-to-God wolves howling through the cold November air. Walking out of the woods to my truck, I realized that I wasn’t alone at the top of the food chain in the Northwoods. I knew that there were a couple of packs in the region, but the actual confirmation that we were hunting in the same territory was thrilling. I’d come looking for big, wild country and I’d found it. Knowing that these animals were still here made me look at my new hunting area in a different way. This was a place that was whole—where the workings of nature still ticked. The fact that I, too, was part of it all was uplifting.Later, I found myself lucky enough to be living and working in western Montana. Ever since my youth, spent chasing whitetails in woodlots, I’d wanted to hunt elk. The mystique of the backcountry and stories of wapiti that roamed the mountains beckoned me.Searching the ample public lands in my new home, I focused on the Pintler and Sapphire Ranges as the place where I would hunt elk and fulfill a lifelong desire. I’d heard about the wolves in the region, and how they affected elk movement, but there seemed to be plenty of elk around so I hunted them…and hunted and hunted and hunted. Sure, I found elk, mostly flashes of tan crashing through dense stands of lodgepole as I spooked yet another herd. As the season wore down, I realized that hiking for miles on end wasn’t going to cut it: I had to slow down and work to get in close if I was going to kill an elk.After making a personal pact to stop chasing elk as if it were some cross-country marathon, and actually start hunting, I found myself slowly stalking down a ridge on a snowy afternoon in late November. Elk sign was everywhere: droppings, tracks, beds. But the snow showed their age and I was there a day late; another hundred yards and the reason was clear. Several sets of wolf tracks criss-crossed the ridge and I knew that continuing to hunt here on this day was futile. That evening I scoured my map, trying to decide where I’d go if I was an elk being hunted by man and canine. I settled on a long ridge about three miles from where I’d been hunting and set the alarm clock early.Not long into the new day, it was clear I’d made a good choice. As I eased through fresh snow along the edge of a burn, and cow and a calf materialized in front of me, casually walking within fifty yards before entering the timber. The whole time they were unaware of my presence and I gained a boost of confidence that it was possible to sneak close enough to an elk to make a good shot. I began to think that I had crossed some intangible threshold that signified my ability—worth perhaps—of the keen responsibility and honor that killing an elk demands. I was deep in elk country, meeting Wapiti on their terms and turf, passing the tests of hearing, sight, and smell…tests honed through the ancient dance of predator and prey.Nearing the end of the day, I began to drop off down a finger ridge that I figured would lead me to a creek, then camp, a hot meal, and stories of the day's events with my hunting partners. But I still snuck my way along through the snow, pausing to scan ahead of me, and down into the draw below.“There’s an elk.”The matter-of-fact thought entered my brain shortly after my eyes saw a patch of tawny hide bedded in a tangle of deadfall one hundred yards below. Raising my binoculars, I could see that it was a bull and my legs started to shake. Easing into the prone position behind the trunk of a burnt lodgepole, I found the bull in my riflescope and confirmed that he had the required four-inch long brow times. Trying to settle the bucking crosshairs, I took a couple deep breaths, forcing myself to focus my excitement. The crosshairs came to rest solidly behind the bull’s shoulder and the shot echoed through the valley.Since then, I have continued to hunt and kill elk in country where elk and hunters (of the two and four-legged variety) still match wits, and I like being part of it. There are a lot of places where a person can hunt knowing that they are undisputedly at the top of the food chain—most of Montana and nearly all of America. But there are precious few places where that role is shared and up for grabs.In a polarized issue, I’m neither a wolf lover nor hater. In country big enough to support wolves, I think that they deserve a place out there. I’ve been lucky enough to tromp around in a few of those places with rifle in hand and the land feels different. It is whole, and we are lucky that we can still feel that special sense of bigness, that this world is a heck of a lot more than ourselves. It is spiritual. But that doesn’t mean that wolves should be everywhere or expand unchecked. The reality is that we are not living in the natural world through which Lewis and Clark traversed. Much of the West has been “tamed,” it isn’t wild, and wolves don’t belong in a chopped up, fenced, cut-over, urbanized landscape. It is cliché, but wolves are a symbol of wilderness, and they deserve those wild lands in which to be wolves. Moreover, we as humans deserve that wild country to find ourselves, test our mettle, and get back to what it means to be self-sufficient, if only for a long weekend.Wolves. They stir up the emotion of what has been and what we hope our world to be. Folks need to work together from the baseline where we live now, the habitat we have left, our needs as a society, the values of intact ecosystems, and find balance between man and wolf. In short, this is wildlife management; it isn’t perfect, but we are fortunate enough to have the North American Model of Wildlife Management, where wildlife belongs to all, and is managed through hunting to try and achieve that balance given the constraints of our ecosystems and society. As with all animals with populations healthy enough to be hunted, wolves should be managed under this model based on population objectives, management goals, and the carrying capacity of habitat and society.Dry, soulless terms those are: population objectives, management goals, carrying capacity…but we are not living in a natural Utopia. We can coexist with wolves on the landscape, and have great elk hunting too. But we need to be cognizant of where wolves deserve to roam, protect our remaining backcountry areas, and “manage” wolves dependant on the constraining variables we have created on the landscapes of the West.Corey Fisher lives and works in western Montana, where spends his free time casting flies to trout and hunting about anything in season. He can be contacted at fisherwild@hotmail.com.
Quote from: WAcoyotehunter on February 09, 2010, 08:46:49 AMMales, on average, weigh 130 lbs Funny that the LARGEST wolf harvested in MT was 117 lbs...what gives? Ten to twenty years down the road, hydatid disease will raise its head, in particular in persons who as toddlers crawled over floors walked over by people and dogs carrying in hydatid eggs from the outside. It's been ~15 years since introduction...where is this horrible pandemic worm? I've heard a lot of people compare wolves to those nice little neighborhood puppy dogs. The number of people who have been attacked by wolves is growing. The number who have been killed is also growing. In his letter to Bangs, Graves pointed out that people in certain parts of Siberia do not venture outside at night because, if they do, their odds of being attacked by a wolf are substantial. Here is part of an e-mail from a Washingtonian, It's true that wolves in Siberia attack people...had they introduced wolves from Siberia I would be nervous. How many attacks have these introduced wolves been responsible for in the US? "I can tell you I have had firsthand experience with these wolves in Washington, we have had them looking in our house windows, they have killed deer within a 100 yards of our house, I have shot at them to scare them off and they turn and lope right at me going past me at 50 yards. These wolves are not afraid of people and they are huge. We don't go out at night to let the dogs pee without taking a big flashlight and gun, I spend many nights at the barns watching out for our stock when the wolves are in close to us. One of the reasons that the wolf diseases will spread and be easy to come in contact with will be that there is too high of a population of wolves." Pictures please...I think I've heard this "tame as a housecat" discussion before but somehow there are never pictures to show these wolves so close to the house...what gives? If they're so close and tame take a picture. If a Canadian Gray Wolf can crush the rib bones of a deer, just how safe do you truly believe you are if you come face to face with this predator without the means to defend yourself? If three wolves are not afraid to take on the majestic Grizzly, do you think they are afraid to take you on? Wait a minute...I thought they were in your yard with mundane regularity- how have you survived so long against those odds? Saveelk is BS propaganda and is about as accurate with facts as the PETA website. I'm not really pro wolf, but I appreciate factual information to make an informed desision. I also see them as another big game animal, not a bloodthirsty killer. They do what predators do... I think you need to change your handle to something less like a hunter of coyotes and more like a paid up in full member of PETA because you sound a lot more like an animal rights guy than a hunter. If you were really a hunter you would not be ragging on things that you are not 100% sure of such as bickering about a few pounds of weights of wolves. Maybe you should do a little homework before your so quick to condemn things that are said against this non native predator introduced by Wolf advocates who conveniently left out all the diseases and parasites wolves carry when they wrote up the EIS. There is a documented weight of this subspecies the Mackenzie valley wolf that weighed 175 pounds. That is documented. It was taken in Alaska. And you must think wolves from Siberia speak Russian and Wolves from Canada speak english or French I presume because you sure seem to think siberian wolves act differently than North American wolves. What is your basis for that?? You are obviously one of those raised on Walt Disney and can't see past what the enviro-nazi animal rights people have been shoving inside your head. I'm guessing you live dead center of some big liberal city because you sure act like someone who got their knowledge from inside the concrete jungle. I believe wolfbait in his claims of a lot of wolves having no fear of humans. I went to high school with a girl who has had wolves pop up in front of her at under 30 yards and howl, and not run away. She has had them parallel her at 30 or 40 yards while on her horse, all the while pacing her and showing no fear. Can't say the same for her horse though. They routinely case her property looking for an easy victim in one of her pet dogs. They come and crap all over her porch and property marking her house as their territory. Does that sound like a cowering afraid animal? I have scoured save our elks site and comparing them to PETA in terms of fact checking really tells me you are a wolf in sheeps clothing, er, I mean an anti in hunting clothing. Your transparency seems pretty clear to me. Any true hunter would not condemm so easily and callously. What pray tell is on save our elk that you think is total B.S. ?? I am really curious to know becasue I have looked the site over well and I don't think they are trying to deceive anyone with lies. Maybe it's all the videos, I assume you think they are all fake? There is one in there pertaining to your comment about wolves not being able to crush bones with their jaws. I will bet that is true although I have not done research on that but you can bet I will. Check out the video where the pack of wolves catch a slightly to long in lingering coyote at full stride. Considering that they literally rip the poor thing in half in about 2 seconds that kind of tells me they have pretty good jaws on them and a little bit of strength. And last but not least, you, if indeed you really do coyote hunt, maybe you had better start reading up on E. Granulosus and E. Multilocularis,, (the little tape worm.) Bear in mind to be sure to believe everything the state biologists and Head wolf guy Ed Bang says about them. "they are no big deal," then you can go about your merry little way when your in the woods and not worry one bit about this happy go lucky little worm that won't hurt you in the least. Or maybe you will look at the research from those who do not fly by a political agenda and you will see what this beautiful little cestode is capable of. You might even find out that it can take any where from 2 to 15 years to manifest itself inside your body. That could be one reason why were not seeing a lot of people with it yet. How would you like a grapefruit sized cyst (ball of tapeworms) on one of your lungs or on your liver from E. Granulosus. Theres another one though not readily found yet in our wolves, it might just be a matter of time for E. multilocularis to be transferred from more northern voles and fox. This is a real nice worm. If you get this and are not diagnosed within 5 years 70% of those infected will die. So all your talk about things that don't happen or have never happened is a naieve way of thinking considering how short a period of time the wolf has been down here. As you see the numbers soar you will see these problems manifest themselves. And yes, it's just a matter of time before someone is ripped to shreds and eaten or "sport killed," another thing wolves love to do but I suppose you think that is all propaganda also. I really feel sorry that real hunters have to put up with people like you who portray themselves as hunters or sportsmen. People like you with that kind of an attitude do hunters a great disservice by cow towing to the ideals of the anti's, the misinformed, and their lies and half truths. It's sad to see you have bought into the disney version of the wolf so deeply. There are many reasons this country and most every other country that has had wolves in the past got rid of them. Those who pay no attention to history are doomed to repeat it. You definitly seem to have drunk the koolaid. If you really do hunt I feel sorry for you and your biased way of thinking. Together we stand, divided we fall..[/color]
Sounds like a good first post to me! I Hunted Northern British Columbia last year and seen what wolves do first hand, Ruin great hunting! Wolf tracks trailing every set of Moose tracks I found, The Male wolf I killed weighed 160 scaled pounds. I seen pics of wolves way bigger then mine. Now, On my Mule Deer hunt this fall in the pasayton, areas that I see 10+deer a day in more often then not, didn't see a single deer in 4 days, Wolves howling around my camp and found 2 young does all tore up in to pieces Sounds like that Wacoyotehtr clown fell of the PETA wagon to me. Just Sayin...
I am not going to get involved with the dispute two people have.....but the difference in weight of 130 pounds and 117 pounds is only 13 pounds. I do not believe that to be grossly over estimated. just my
It is not very much in terms of numbers, but put it into another perspective that has as much emotion tied to it on this site. What is the difference between a 200" mule deer and a 187" mule deer? Some members here would argue to death over that 13" being a huge difference. It comes down to playing with people's emotions, 130# sounds big but 118# is a lot closer to what some people see with their own dogs. Brandon
I tend to disagree with de-listing and treating wolves as game animals in the future... One pair of wolves produces 2-5 or 6 pups, while one pair of real game animals produces 1 or 2 (rarely) fawns, calves, or whatever. Since ungulates don't eat wolves, obviously, wolves win down the road. They are pests and should be treated as such. They will always exist, since they are highly adaptable, but we should keep them ALWAYS under control. Hunting season can not control their populations...
It's also the difference in the AVERAGE size of 130lbs (which is BS) and an exceptional (the largest killed this year in MT) of 117 lbs. You're right- 13 lbs might not be a big deal, but if you consider the average it could have a standard error of "who knows how much"...
Quote from: Sporting_Man on February 11, 2010, 10:03:27 AMI tend to disagree with de-listing and treating wolves as game animals in the future... One pair of wolves produces 2-5 or 6 pups, while one pair of real game animals produces 1 or 2 (rarely) fawns, calves, or whatever. Since ungulates don't eat wolves, obviously, wolves win down the road. They are pests and should be treated as such. They will always exist, since they are highly adaptable, but we should keep them ALWAYS under control. Hunting season can not control their populations...First of all hunting can controll their populations, it works that's why we have hunting seasons. Yes they do have 2-6 pups per year but do you know how many of those 6 survive to the age of 1? Look it up you may be amazed.Quote from: WAcoyotehunter on February 11, 2010, 09:52:11 AMIt's also the difference in the AVERAGE size of 130lbs (which is BS) and an exceptional (the largest killed this year in MT) of 117 lbs. You're right- 13 lbs might not be a big deal, but if you consider the average it could have a standard error of "who knows how much"...I am not sure how many on here would understand standard error! I would like to know what the average size was as well!!Brandon
Really- my suggestion is to continue what you're doing and pay attention to wolf sign. Document it and report to the state to help the delisting effort. That is the only way that I can think of to get the delisting process going an begin managing wolves once they are well established.
Quote from: SkookumHntr on February 11, 2010, 08:50:31 AMSounds like a good first post to me! I Hunted Northern British Columbia last year and seen what wolves do first hand, Ruin great hunting! Wolf tracks trailing every set of Moose tracks I found, The Male wolf I killed weighed 160 scaled pounds. I seen pics of wolves way bigger then mine. Now, On my Mule Deer hunt this fall in the pasayton, areas that I see 10+deer a day in more often then not, didn't see a single deer in 4 days, Wolves howling around my camp and found 2 young does all tore up in to pieces Sounds like that Wacoyotehtr clown fell of the PETA wagon to me. Just Sayin... So let me get this straight, just this year you noticed that the wolves have culled the herds down to low numbers? But yet the wolves according to some people have been around for 5 or more years. That seems a little odd that in one year the wolves suddenly decide to kill all the deer! Do you have pics of the "160 pound wolf" you shot? I would love to see it.Quote from: NWBREW on February 09, 2010, 12:32:20 PMI am not going to get involved with the dispute two people have.....but the difference in weight of 130 pounds and 117 pounds is only 13 pounds. I do not believe that to be grossly over estimated. just my It is not very much in terms of numbers, but put it into another perspective that has as much emotion tied to it on this site. What is the difference between a 200" mule deer and a 187" mule deer? Some members here would argue to death over that 13" being a huge difference. It comes down to playing with people's emotions, 130# sounds big but 118# is a lot closer to what some people see with their own dogs. Brandon
We seen are first wolf in the upper Sinlahekin about 5 years ago! We didn't hunt 08 because of other hunts but 09 yes from 07 to 09 the deer numbers are wayway down! I don't care what any Bio's say, Hunting was as *censored*ty as I have ever seen and we had a better later season with weather towards the end. The deer in the area we hunt were more herded up and not spread out like normal and pretty obvious things are different then 3+ years ago, This coming up fall will tell us more, if hunting is *censored*ty again no doubt the wolves have ran um out or changed the normal patterns of the deer herd. And Yes I got pics of my wolf, If I can figure out how to scan a regular pic and get it on here I will, but keep in mind its a Canadian timber wolf and there pretty big, Its on the brochure for Double Eagle Outfitters in BC if you happen to go to the Portland Sportsmans show.
Brandon, how many deer fawns and elk calves will survive to the age of 1 in the wolf country?
