308 vs 30-06

[chrisb]

Here's my question: 308 and 30-06 have the same bullet right? if so then the difference between the loads (for arguments sake lets just presume we are only referring to factory ammo) is the amount of powder behind it right? Based on the side by side comparison the 308 appears to me to be a 30-06 shortened. So why is it then that the 308 is recommended for long range (300+yds) over the 30-06 by so many? My assumption is that the 30-06 would be better for long range b/c it carries a larger powder charge behind it.

What am I not understanding?

[Bofire]

 :)1 everybody has an opinion.
2 higher bullet speed is not everything
3 the 308 has probably had more research put into it for long range work than any other cartridge
4 probably the most widely used sniper cartridge in the world
5 consistency is what counts for long range work, not 2-400fps.
6 I do not know many people who would reccomend the 08 over the 06, just based on  cartridge.
7 you are much more likely to find a good buy on a set up 308 than 06, just cause there are so many.
there hope I helped.
Carl

[chrisb]

Thanks Carl. I've actually got both and was wondering more for my own education than a purchasing decision. I personally love my 06 bt the kids 308 is a nice shooter too so 

[270Shooter]

The .308 is supposed to be inheritantly (sp?) more accurate than the 30-06.

[44 Flattop]

My assumption is that the 30-06 would be better for long range b/c it carries a larger powder charge behind it.

What am I not understanding?

Your assumption is correct.  The case is longer, holds more powder for the same bullet weight and therefore has higher velocity.  The difference between the two calibers is 'maybe' 50 yards, 75 at most. 

I'm really not sure who would have made such recommendation, certainly not anyone who has any understanding of ballistics.

44

[Thenewguy]

My assumption is that the 30-06 would be better for long range b/c it carries a larger powder charge behind it.

What am I not understanding?

Your assumption is correct.  The case is longer, holds more powder for the same bullet weight and therefore has higher velocity.  The difference between the two calibers is 'maybe' 50 yards, 75 at most. 

I'm really not sure who would have made such recommendation, certainly not anyone who has any understanding of ballistics.

44

Here we go...

[chrisb]

Ok since you brought it up lets talk ballistics.... OK so I don't actually know anything about the ballistics of either round ( i don knwo that i like them both) but maybe someone will chime in with actual ballistic data.

And I'm not a reloader so i'm really only concerned with the ballistics of readily available factory ammo. I'm a big fan of Remington Core-Lokt if that helps the discussion any.

[ADAMS]

"So why is it then that the 308 is recommended for long range (300+yds) over the 30-06 by so many?"

For reasons I am unable to articulate, a shorter powder column appears to be advantageous for accuracy. 

Oh, and for the record, that was your 308th post.

[chrisb]

"So why is it then that the 308 is recommended for long range (300+yds) over the 30-06 by so many?"

For reasons I am unable to articulate, a shorter powder column appears to be advantageous for accuracy.

but shouldn't the 30-06 be able to reach out further?

[ADAMS]

Both the 30/06 and .308 will push bullets over 2 miles.  Accuracy is about getting the smallest terminal grouping where the rifle is held in precisely the same position shot to shot.  Just because the 30/06's additional 150fps of velocity will give the same bullet a flatter trajectory doesn't necessarily mean that it will group better.

Again, I understand that a shorter powder column is advantageous to accuracy and I wish I could explain why.  There are some very knowledgeable people here who can hopefully shed some more light on the issue.

[bobcat]

The 30-06 is better than the 308 at longer ranges in the same way that the 300 Win. Mag. is better than the 30-06 at longer ranges. More velocity. I've never heard anybody say the 308 was "better" in any way than the 30-06. The only advantage the 308 might have over the 30-06 is less recoil. Another comparison, the 30-30 and 308. They also shoot the same caliber bullet, but the 308 does so at a little more speed. Is the 30-30 a better long range cartridge than the 308? Of course not.

[Bob33]

Most (more?) individuals would state that the 308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06.  That is due primarily to the shorter case of the 308.  Shorter cases means the powder burns more consistently.  In reality the differences are so small that anyone other than a competitive shooter should not even care to enter the debate.   A typical hunter should have no concern about inherent accuracy differences.  If you are a competitive shooter, shooting at 1000 yards, then perhaps you will care.

The 30-06 shoots a .30 caliber bullet faster than an equivalent bullet from a .308: about 150 feet per second more.  Whether or not that matters to you depends on what you are shooting and at what distances.  99 percent of the hunting population would find either caliber adequate.

Google "308 30-06 accuracy" and check back in a year after you've read up on the debate

[BigGoonTuna]

7 you are much more likely to find a good buy on a set up 308 than 06, just cause there are so many.

i think the opposite is true, mainly since the '06 had about a 50 year head start on the 308.  i very rarely see used .308s on the racks...but the '06 is a dime a dozen.

i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice.  no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.

The 30-06 is better than the 308 at longer ranges in the same way that the 300 Win. Mag. is better than the 30-06 at longer ranges. More velocity.

accurate and flat shooting don't have to go together.  it may be *easier* to shoot a caliber with a flat trajectory, but accuracy is being able to put the bullet where you want it.  as an example, the .45-70 may have the trajectory of a slingshot, but it is a very accurate caliber, despite velocities under 2000fps.

[littlemac]

This should keep you up for awhile making comparisons between the two.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/308_winchester.html

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/30_06.html


 

[bobcat]

I understand higher velocity doesn't necessarily mean more accuracy. But with all else being equal, more velocity is an advantage at longer ranges. I don't believe the 308 is "inherently" that much more accurate than the 30-06. I think it is the rifle itself that matters. If the 308 was the best long range 30 caliber cartridge, nobody would be using the 30-06, the 300 Win Mag, the 300 WSM, the 300 Weatherby, etc.

I think Bofire meant it was easier to find a 308 that was "set up" for long range shooting. Not necessarily a hunting rifle.

[AWS]

A couple of thoughts 308's are built on a short actions which are stiffer and a little easier to build an accurate rifle.  If you have a weight limit as in most target disciplines you can put more weight in the barrel making it stiffer.   With a shorter powder column  and sharper shoulder they are more efficient making smaller SD's easier to obtain and they are powerful enough to shoot nearly as fast and do as much damage when they get there as a 30-06.  With the same weight bullet they recoil less do to the slightly lower velocity, smaller powder charge(less stuff going down the barrel) and less jet effect of a smaller powder charge.  

AWS

[chef bama]

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp
(says .308 more accurate, seems plausible)

I got a Savage .308 at a pawnshop for half what the 30-06's were going for. Pawn shop guy said because in our area everybody wanted an '06 and not a 308. 

[Viszla]

think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice.  no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.

You can shoot 7.62x51 in a 308??  If you can that is nice to know as all my rifles are 308.

[Bob33]

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-440516.html

308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone's 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell's .308 vs 7.62x51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.

[chrisb]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm not much of a long distance shooter myself (hunting or benchrest) but wanted to understand the difference in the two rounds a little better.


Good to know that i can get surplus 7.62 for my 308 now as well.

[ADAMS]

Here are a couple of articles that tackle the subject:

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

[bobcat]

This is a key quote from one of the above links ADAMS posted:

Outside of competitive shooting, the difference between these two
cartridges is miniscule.

[BigGoonTuna]

think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice.  no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.

You can shoot 7.62x51 in a 308??  If you can that is nice to know as all my rifles are 308.

yep, just don't shoot 308 in a 7.62x51 chambered rifle(308 has a higher pressure spec IIRC).

i think we're splitting hairs comparing the 308 and 30/06.  best way to decide is to find the gun you want and compare the 308 and 30/06 models.  then go home with the one with the nicer piece of walnut

[BPturkeys]

I shot my first elk back in 1971 with a Savage 99 in .308...damn...he thought he was shot with an '06 and fell right dead! :

[Curly]

 

One of the elk I shot with my .300 Win mag thought he was shot with a .300RUM. 

[Bofire]

 :)ahhhhhh ignorance is such sweet, sweet bliss.
Carl

[Bob33]

I don't believe the 308 is "inherently" that much more accurate than the 30-06.

That is true.  The operative question is how much more is "that much more"?  It is probably measured in a few inches at 1000 yards.  However, if you are a hunter the question is not how well you can shoot at 1000 yards.  The 30-06's increased velocity will result in less drop, and more retained energy at distances that you should be more concerned about like 300 to 500 yards.  That gives it a leg up as a hunting rifle, in my opinion.   If you like to shoot lots, the 308 will be cheaper.  If you want to punch paper at 1000 yards, the 308 might give you a slightly smaller group.  If you are extremely recoil sensitive, the 308 has less recoil.  Other than that, go for the 30-06 or flip a coin.

[Bofire]

out to about 300hunnert yards er so they be about the same then them  new fangled miliytary powders kick in and the comparison is all over.
seee about 3hunnert er so the blend kicks in and the 308 speeds up oh about 247 fps er so. she runs about the same out to bout 600 er so then the 06 catches on up see? so youse need a couple range finders.
so, when them elks see that 30 callybur  bullut comin at em they time it, an iffn its a 06 they just fall over and die, if its a 308 they wait until it misses em.
BUT iffn its a MAGNUM, they die at the camp fire!
hope youse is all eddycated up now
Carl

[duckaholic]

i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice.  no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.

i thought that the m1-grand was in 30-06, am i wrong? 

[chrisb]

i think the biggest advantage to the 308 is the ability to shoot 7.62x51 military surplus ammo for cheap practice.  no other "big" centerfire rifle can be fed as cheaply as the 308, except maybe the 7.62x54R.

i thought that the m1-grand was in 30-06, am i wrong? 

You are not wrong there.

[duckaholic]

so dose that mean that there is more than one "big" center fire rifle that is a military round? (just thought i would point that out seems how it wasn't brought up)

[MichaelJ]

30-06 = long action, more powder, more velocity...

308 = short action, less powder, less velocity, less recoil...

308 is so popular for long range competition because its the "Chevy 350" of the shooting world.  Parts are cheap, quality load info is easily attainable, mil surplus brass is cheap, mil surplus ammo is cheap, and did I mention the military uses them?

There's quite a few people out there shooting 30-06 in long range rifle competitions, and the caliber really shines when you handload for it, or even go with an Ackley verson...  You can build the bigger calibers off the long action (300 winmag, 7 WSM, and other magnum calibers), while you can't off the 308 short action (but you can load some sweet short action calibers too like the 6.5x47 lapua, 243, or any other version of a 6.5/6 mm caliber).

Velocity has VERY little to do with accuracy.  Sure you don't have to dial in as much scope adjustment, but with as long as the bullet is staying super-sonic at the range and has an equal ballistic Coefficient value as a flatter caliber, it will be just as accurate provided all other factors equal...

Michael

[BigGoonTuna]

so dose that mean that there is more than one "big" center fire rifle that is a military round? (just thought i would point that out seems how it wasn't brought up)

it is, but it's not so cheap to shoot any more, being that most of the surplus has dried up.  .308 is still an official nato caliber, while the 30/06 is militarily obsolete.