Police ticket man who wore gun in store

[Special T]

Just because that was not his intent to "test" the law doesn't change the fact that his weapons confiscation and citation are now part of the legal record...

[ADAMS]

From the mall's website.  Someone needs to clue these folks in on a little secret.  -=The bad guys don't follow laws let alone private property prohibitions, the violation of which carry no penalty.=-


STANDARDS OF CONDUCT

The mall, including its parking lot, is private property. In order to maximize the enjoyment, convenience, and safety of our guests, the following standards of conduct are set forth for the purpose of protecting the center’s legitimate business interest. Any violation of the code interferes with the commercial nature and function of the center. As a visitor on this property, you are prohibited from engaging in any of the following activities while on this property.

Examples of such activities include, but are not limited to:

Carrying or possessing any weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license.

http://www.lloydcentermall.com/info/codeofconduct.cfm

[Special T]

Uh oh! was this a well posted standard of conduct? I think there is a signage requirement isn't there?

[ADAMS]

I don't know if there are signs and am not aware of any signage requirement.  Basically, if you are seen on the premises with a handgun, you are asked to leave.  If you refuse, then you are trespassing which is a violation of law.

[brush hunter]

I for one am in favor of open carry, however you lose the element of surprise to the criminal element. I would much rather have some punk pull a knife face to face and give him a bullet between the eyes, than to have him stab me in the back because he knows I'm armed.

[muleysgirl13]

I wish there was more education to the public and actually a bit of "support" i guess would be the word from Law Enforcments that this is LEGAL in washington.  What happened at that store ruined all the uneducated (if they didnt know the law) shoppers idea of what is infact legal.  There may have been people in that store that weren't alarmed but now will be because they saw a man get a ticket for open carry when it sounds that he wasn't breaking any law.  And to top it off if his wifes jacket was covering it and she didnt have her cpl then she was infact the one breaking the law in the situation (not that it sounds like she should get a ticket) but that situation makes people who practice open carry look bad.  I value our open carry rights, I dont practice it but I also don't own a handgun.... and Im pretty sure if I walked into safeway with a 12 gauge the cops would be called for sure not that I was breaking any laws just goes with the same idea that we have the privlage but not to over use it.  I carry a knife with me folding box knife type thing but its visiblemost of the time and people don't call the cops on me shouldn't have to be any different with a handgun.  Its a tough subject especially with how over populated this state is getting.  If this man was in a grocery store north in a more rural area this probably wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

[NWHydroprint]

I talked to my sister who is a prosecutor she said that stores, malls can not prohibit the lawful carry of a firearm and if they do so they have violated your 2 amendment rights. Now they can ask you to leave since it is private property. She said she was going to follow the case in Vancouver and will let me know more as she finds out i guess this happens alot in all the cities the cops go overboard.
NWH

[brush hunter]

Your sister is wrong, at least in Washington state. The law states You cannot carry a firearm into any public establishment that has a sing prohibiting firearms at an entrance point.

[Special T]

Brush hunter That was my understanding as well. A while back one member went to a restaurant on the Columbia river  that by accident put the No firearms allowed for the bar at the front door... when asked the owner realized the mistake and invited the member back.... Was it MC Minimans? ... anyway it was discussed then... 

[runamuk]

Your sister is wrong, at least in Washington state. The law states You cannot carry a firearm into any public establishment that has a sing prohibiting firearms at an entrance point.

I hate when we do this..."some law says"...please post a link or copy of the WAC or RCW so we can read the actual law.  This state has a notorious amount of "laws" that contradict other "laws" so seeing them as written with all the references to exceptions is very helpful...at least for me

[grundy53]

Your sister is wrong, at least in Washington state. The law states You cannot carry a firearm into any public establishment that has a sing prohibiting firearms at an entrance point.

i think our constitution trumps that. i believe that's what nwh's sister (who is a prosecutor and probably knows what she's talking about) was saying.

[brush hunter]

http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/182116.asp

[ICEMAN]

From Brush Hunters link; 

Q: I have a concealed-weapons license and can carry a handgun on my person concealed. Can I carry the same firearm "open" and not have to worry about someone calling the police on me?

I've heard that Washington has a "open-carry" law that doesn't require any license as long as the firearm is within full view on a person. Is this true?

If someone sees me carrying a firearm am I in possible trouble with the law?

And pertaining to concealment: If I conceal a firearm on my person but you can see the outline of the gun is this cause for concern or is it OK as long as it's "concealed?"

A: Here's information from the King County Sheriff's Office:

Washington is an "open- carry" state. That means a person may openly carry a firearm (pistol, rifle or shotgun) in public without a concealed-pistol license.

Of course, as with any other "right" there are exceptions. A firearm may not be taken into a courtroom, jail, school, bar or parts of airports, for example.

In addition, there may be limits as to age, felon, DV conviction, protection order, or specific court order. …

RCW 9.41.270 provides that it is unlawful for a person to carry, exhibit, display or draw any firearm in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. A violation is a gross misdemeanor.

This statute is very fact-specific, but in general, merely walking around in public with the gun properly secured in an exposed holster does not constitute a violation.

A court will consider "time, place, manner" factors, such as the time of day, whether the area is residential, urban or countryside, the manner in which the weapon is being carried, the size and type of weapon, whether the clip is visibly attached, high-crime area, whether the person waved it around, tossed it when stopped, etc.

In State v. Spencer, the court … upheld a conviction for RCW 9.41.270 when the person carried an AK-47 with the clip attached on the person's shoulder at 10 p.m., while walking briskly through a residential area with his head down and avoiding eye contact.

In State v. Mitchell, officers on night patrol saw the defendant and a companion walking down the street in a residential area in Seattle. The defendant was carrying a semi-automatic handgun and as officers passed, they observed him tuck it into his waistband. When the officers stopped them, the defendant tossed the gun into the bushes. The court held that openly carrying such a weapon at night in an urban residential area was sufficient to warrant reasonable suspicion that the crime of unlawful display of a firearm was being committed.

In State v. Craig, the court held that an eyewitness testimony that a person driving by in a car pointing a gun at the witness was sufficient to support a finding that officers had probable cause to believe that the person committed the crime of unlawfully displaying (a) weapon.

What might be acceptable behavior on a country road in hunting season would be cause for alarm in an urban residential neighborhood in a high crime area at night. Nonetheless, again typically carrying a properly holstered gun openly will not pass sufficient muster for a violation.

RCW 9.41.230 prohibits a person from aiming any firearm, whether loaded or not, at or towards a human being. It also prohibits willfully discharging a firearm in a public place or in any place where a person might be endangered. Public places do not include locations where it discharging firearms is authorized.

RCW 9.41.250 prohibits "furtively carrying with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol or other dangerous weapon."

While "open carry" is legal in public, private property is a different matter.

Private property owners may limit individuals' right to carry on their property. This includes quasi-public property such as shopping malls, restaurants and retail stores.

The notice may take two forms. First, if a property is clearly marked with very visible signs at all entrances that say "No Firearms Allowed," then it is illegal to bring a firearm onto the property, with or without a CPL. The crime would be trespass.

If there is no signage and the person with the weapon is asked to leave by the owner or agent and the person refuses, (deputies) can also use the trespass statute. …

State law controls this area of the law and preempts local jurisdictions from passing more restrictive laws on carrying firearms.

[CP]

I wouldn’t believe any “information” from someone that doesn’t know the difference between a clip and a magazine.

[ICEMAN]

Hah! Yeah, I sort of messed up at the academy, kept calling the magazine for our handguns "clips". The instructor got pretty bitchy about my use of the word. So the next time we were in class, I brought the box my "Kwik Clip" came in.....  I think I lost points that day...