Predators & lights

[bearbait]

Can,t really figure out the legality of using spotlights at night for predators (Coyote and bobcat) in the regs.  Where can I find out the real scoop, or do's anyone really know?  How about the use of amber or red lights?

[PolarBear]

The use of lights (red or spotlights) is legal for coyotes, raccoons, etc as long as it is within legal seasons and NOT during an open deer or elk season.  I got that straight from my friend at the WDFW.  I shoot quite a few songdogs at night with my red spotlight.

[Krusty]

On page 61 of the new game regs it covers night hunting.

Bobcat, raccoon, and coyote may be hunted at night... then it should read; ONLY... during the established raccoon and bobcat seasons.

Night hunting is unlawful in any area currently open for a centerfire deer or elk season, during the months of September, October, or November.

Be very careful of this... the Advanced Hunter Program allows some very long centerfire seasons (in areas like the Clockum).

But it also can be a benefit. In areas like the Snoqualmie Valley, closed to the use of centerfire rifles, is lawful to hunt throughout the deer season (with an approved firearm).

____________________________________________________________

The use of colored lenses is a widely misunderstood subject.
Generally speaking a colored lens is used to "dim" a spotlight, not so a coyote "can't see it".
The coyote is being blinded by the light, regardless of color.

Contest hunters originally (in the late 50's and early 60's) began using colored lights, when animals became "light shy"... and these colored lenses were used in a "flipper" (or a flapper) configuration.
The colored lens dimmed the light while looking for eyes, and a target was "burned" with white light for the shot.

In places like Texas, where spotlighting from raised platforms in the back of a moving truck has caused animals to be extremely light shy colored lenses were again used, but in a "static" configuration... meaning they don't open revealing the white light.
Winning or losing lots of money isn't one of the negatives of target recognition problems (faced by sport hunters), so having a burn light is not as important (though I don't see why they don't use technology that could help if it's available).

Some modern contest hunters, following the latest trend in lights, are using "superposed" lights... A spotlight with more than one bulb/element.
A soft (often colored) wide angle light is housed along with a bright white "pencil spot", and wired to a two stage trigger.
This way they have a sweeping light less likely to spook shy critters, and a burn light for the shot.

_____________________________________________________________

The real issue we face with night hunting, is education. We have to take the risk of finding a game officer, or police officer, who isn't "schooled up" on the laws pertaining to night hunting.

If you are night hunting, here's a piece of advice from me.
Don't use a rifle you'd miss if it were held in police custody while you await your day in court.
Don't have anything in your vehicle you'd miss, or that could make your troubles worse (like deer grunt calls or antlers for rattling, any food that could be considered (bear) bait, or even your big game transport tags).
Carry copies of the regs, and WAC codes pertaining to night hunting, and be prepaired to educate law inforcement (in a VERY polite way).

The game laws are very unclear, and even game officers have trouble interpretting them, which can lead to a conflict that will take steps through the chain of command to resolve.
The wheels of WDFW justice turn very slowly, just waiting to have them figure out you did nothing wrong, and return siezed property, can take months.

Good luck out there in the dark.

Krusty

[boneaddict]

I personally want to wire my backyard to flip a switch to light up the whole hill behind my house.  That will fix them bugger.

[high country]

call the enforcement guy in your area, talk to him and you will get his answer. I interprt it as legal outside any big game season, but it is all up to the enforcement officer.

[Machias]

I hunt at night a BUNCH, never had any issues the past 13 years.  I also coon hunt with dogs at night, never even met a warden at night.  It is perfectly legal to use lights at night for bobcat, racoons and yotes, there is no interpretation, other then it's legal, DURING ESTABLISHED RACCOON AND BOBCAT SEASONS, as long as there are no modern firearms deer or elk season's open.  How's that Krusty

Red lenses, the nice thing about red lenses is how much they make the eyes look like HUGE bouncing red fireballs as they are running in! 

[Krusty]

I totally disagree with the statement that it is legal anytime outside of modern firearm (deer or elk) season.

To start, raccoons and bobcats have an established season, to hunt them outside of that season, day or night, is unlawful.

I have already quoted it, but here it is again "Bobcat, raccoon, and coyote may be hunted at night during established bobcat and raccoon seasons..."

Every time I have written the WDFW regarding this (or anything else), I get an e-mail back which directly quotes the wording in the reg booklet, certain key phrases pertaining to my question were highlighted in red text.

When I asked for a clarification on year round night hunting of coyotes, the words "coyote may be  hunted at night during established bobcat and raccoon seasons" were the ones highlighted.

Fred,

I haven't had the same luck as you, I have run into trouble, not only from WDFW agents but local law enforcement too.
The WDFW currently has some of my belongings, even though after a Captain's Review I was found not to have violated any laws.

I actually was following the procedure four other WDFW agents had told me to, when the fifth agent decided he saw the law differently than his co-workers.
Calling one guy and asking him is a huge gamble.

On the other side of the coin, just because you don't get in trouble if you are hunting out of season (or night hunting out of season), doesn't make it lawful.

Law enforcement (WDFW) is handled VERY differently Region by Region.
Your side of the hill is a lot lower key.

You can run around all brave, like the WDFW isn't a big scary monster, but I am scared.

Krusty

[Ray]

Interesting Topic. I don't discredit or make any objection to your experiences Krusty. In fact I respect them as something to be aware of. However I must indicate that under the WAC 232-28 this portion is directly under the heading which states "HOUND HUNTING DURING THE DEER AND ELK HUNTING SEASONS".

Verbatim from http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=232-28&full=true

HOUND HUNTING DURING DEER AND ELK HUNTING SEASONS


It is unlawful to hunt any wildlife at night or wild animals with dogs (hounds) during the months of September, October, or November in any area open to a modern firearm deer or elk season. The use of hounds to hunt black bear, cougar (EXCEPT by public safety cougar removal permit (WAC 232-12-243) or a commission authorized hound permit (WAC 232-28-285)), and bobcat is prohibited year round.

This would seemingly imply that it is related to hound hunting. Not necessarily to all night hunting. Is there more information that I am missing?

[Machias]

Krusty I didn't say anything about hunting at night year round for yotes.  I agree with you, you must hunt during the open season, re-read my post.  I hunt ALLOT at night for yotes, coon and Roberts, never had any issues.
  
"You can run around all brave, like the WDFW isn't a big scary monster, but I am scared."

My friend if you knew what has happened to me in the past with the WDFW, LOL,  you would not have made that comment.  I have seen the WDFW in action first hand.  However, if the law states in black and white that what I'm doing is legal and they confiscate my property they will be sued.  Nothing all brave about asserting my right against unlawful detention and prosecution or the unlawful search and seaizure of my property.  Ignorance of the law works both ways, it's not an excuse for either side.

"On the other side of the coin, just because you don't get in trouble if you are hunting out of season (or night hunting out of season), doesn't make it lawful."

I'm not sure where you were getting me advocating unlawful hunting?

[Machias]

The section is dealing with two issues normally conducted during the same time frame, i.e. Night Hunting and Hound Hunting:

Night Hunting and Hound Hunting 
During Deer and Elk Hunting Seasons
Bobcat, raccoon, and coyote may be hunted at night during established bobcat and raccoon seasons, EXCEPT that: It is
unlawful to hunt any wildlife at night or wild animals with dogs (hounds) during the months of September, October, or
November in any area open to a centerfire rifle deer or elk season.
The use of hounds to hunt black bear, cougar or bobcat is prohibited year round except during commission authorized
hunts. There is no longer a hound license.

[Ray]

Thanks for setting my crooked brain straight.

[Krusty]

Fred,

Did you not say "it's legal as long as there are no modern firearms deer or elk season's open."?

Modern firearm deer and elk seasons are not open in June. Bobcat and raccoon seasons are not open. And neither is night hunting.

"As long as" is too ambiguous.

I didn't mean to imply you were advocating unlawful hunting, but it would be really easy for someone to misread and misunderstand what you wrote.

To me, the night hunting, and the use of hounds needs to be addressed seperately, in the regs.
It seems they tried to do so, by seperating the paragraphs, but they always try to cut corners.
In this case, just so they don't have to write the months down twice, or because they share a time frame, they have severely confused the issue.
On your line of thinking, why didn't they combine modern rifle deer season, with duck season... they happen around the same time?

One section, headed "Night Hunting", should read;
Bobcat, raccoon, and coyote, may be hunted at night, only during established bobcat and raccoon seasons, EXCEPT that: It is unlawful to hunt any wildlife at night during the months September, October, or November, in any area open to a centerfire deer or elk season.

Then a completely different section, headed "Hound Hunting", should be relating to hounds;
Coyote and raccoon can be hunted with hounds during the established bobcat and raccoon seasons, EXCEPT that: It is unlawful to hunt wildlife with dogs during the months of September, October, or November, in an area open to a centerfire deer or elk season.
The use of hounds to hunt black bear, cougar, or bobcat, is prohibited year round, EXCEPT: During the commision of authorized hunts.
there is no longer a hound hunting license.

It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense to me, to combine, and thereby confuse, what should be two seperate sections.

Maybe you just look "so brave", because I am so chicken?

Krusty

[billythekidrock]

Ok guys, can we stick to facts and not "Should read". I am having a hard time keeping up already.

[Ray]

I tend to agree with Krusty that there seems to be some ambigous sections in the WAC which can be easy to misinterpret :-)  But at the same time I don't want anything changed because when things change nowadays it seems like you're always sacrificing something unrelated along the way.

[Krusty]

Willie,

I'm sorry if you are having trouble keeping up.

So are you saying you like the regs and the WACs exactly as they are written, and don't see anything that needs to be changed?

I do not see the connection between night hunting, and hound hunting.
Not legally, and not in practice.

(*my brother just informed me that many coons hunters hunt with dogs, and at night)

Even if this is the case (night hound hunters), I don't see where it benefits us, to have the rules (of night hunting, and hound hunting) intermingled.

Ray,

I don't see what we could lose, that wouldn't be worth it, for some clarity in the regulations.

In a recent article, from the Grange News, they said re-writing the fishing and hunting regs, so they were easily understood by the common man, was among their top legislative priorities.
The Washington State Trapper's Assoc, and the National Trapper's Assoc, have tried desperately to clear up language left over from before I-713 changed trapping in this state.
And Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and Pheasant Forever, have also all lobbied for clarity.
That's a lot of big organizations, all with the charge of "lookin' out for us", that believe we do need change (and spending a fair amount of OUR money trying).

Krusty

[Ray]

Well there is nothing hidden behind  why I prefer to keep things the way that they are. Just like I said - nowadays when people rewrite laws to make improvements there always seems to be a side effect that something else is taken away or compromised. That doesn't indicate in any way shape or form that I agree with what we have today 100 percent or that I think that it is right or that I am against anyone campaigning for change. I guess you could say that I am paranoid about these sort of things.

[Krusty]

Willie,

Okay dude, I decided to help you out.

Just like in the regs, I went back up to what I believe the changes "should be", and I made the new parts (that would appear in next years game regs) into red text.

Look in your new game regs, on page 61, and you'll see the way it is currently written.

Krusty

[Machias]

LOL   

"On your line of thinking, why didn't they combine modern rifle deer season, with duck season... they happen around the same time?" 

My line of thinking?  I was just trying to interpert their line of reasoning. Trust me it's NOT my line of thinking at all. 

I figured since I combined bobcat, raccoons and yotes in the same line about as long as modern firearms was not going on folks would realize I was talking about during their season. I went back and fixed for you. 

Hang on, there will be several times in future post where I am not extremely explicit, from this point on please infer I am speaking on the right side of the law.    Not trying to be a smart @$$, just messing with you. 

You can't be all bad I see your a trapper, same here.  Of course in this state I am lower then pond scum, I'm a trapper and a houndsmen! 

I am in agreement easier understanding regs are needed.  Did you realize it is illegal to have treeing switches on your collars?  You would figure something like that would be in the regs.  It's not.  How are new houndsmen supposed to know when they are breaking the law.  They have to search the WACs and find some obscure law that they don't even know exisits.

[Krusty]

Fred,

Yeah yeah, it's hard to explain what the insane are thinking.

Messing with me is fully encouraged, but then I am gonna mess with you once in a while.

I can't be all good either, if I am a trapper, eh?

I asked my brother today, if he recognized your name, he recognized your screen name (if are you Machias on other predator boards, like Predator Masters, etc.?).
Were you at the Trapper's Rendezvous this past summer?
You going this time?

I never had a grudge against houndsmen, to each his own.
I wasn't ever into that much running either, otherwise I mighta ran dogs.

I can tell you it's my opinion that we need houndsmen over here in downtown bear country.
Large predators need to have a fear of man, and dog.

...but that's a whole 'nother ball of string, best left to a thread of it's own.

We've actually got one of the most informative threads on night hunting in Washington, on the 'net.
Let's not hi-jack it eh?

Krusty

[billythekidrock]

Krusty,

Actually I am very clear on the regs on night hunting and I have never had a problem.
 My post was in jest, and more about your earlier post

"I didn't mean to imply you were advocating unlawful hunting, but it would be really easy for someone to misread and misunderstand what you wrote."

and trying to keep things clear for others.


Edit for typos.......there are probably more!

[billythekidrock]

I am in agreement easier understanding regs are needed.  Did you realize it is illegal to have treeing switches on your collars?  You would figure something like that would be in the regs.  It's not.  How are new houndsmen supposed to know when they are breaking the law.  They have to search the WACs and find some obscure law that they don't even know exisits.

Remember, the reg book is not comprehensive. They are just an overview of the game laws.



More typos..

[Machias]

Same guy same screen name Krusty, and I agree, I'll leave this one alone.

Your right Billy, but does every new sportsmen know they have to scour the WACs to find obscure laws?  Probably not, something like treeing switches being illegal, should be in the regs.  But you are right about your point.

[billythekidrock]

but does every new sportsmen know they have to scour the WACs to find obscure laws?  Probably not, something like treeing switches being illegal, should be in the regs. 

I agree as well. Those "obscure" laws that have "always" been there should be alot easier to find. I would gladly pay a small fee for a comprehensive copy every few years. That way I wouldn't have to scour the net for RCWs & WACs only to find out they were replaced or updated.

What I don't understand is how something like the treeing switch is such a big deal. Do you know why they put that into effect?

[Machias]

I'm going to start another thread, Obscure Laws, that way we don't hijack this threa any more

[Otto1]

And Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and Pheasant Forever, have also all lobbied for clarity.
That's a lot of big organizations, all with the charge of "lookin' out for us", that believe we do need change (and spending a fair amount of OUR money trying).

Krusty

I highly doubt that DU has done any lobbying it is not in their mission statement and they have refused to in the past and continue till this day.

What has the Hunters Heritage or W4WC said, as I consider those the ones tasked to "look" out for us.

[Krusty]

Otto,

The organizations I listed were from the lobbyist that works for the WSTA (organizations he said he had "cooperated with"), or from the article in the Grange News.

I could be mistaken on DU, and that wouldn't be a big suprise (to me).

Krusty

[Otto1]

Krusty,

I highly doubt that DU was involved but if they were great they may be making a turn for the better.
My biggest beef with them over the years and thats the reason I support other organizations that are allowed to get involved in the political arena is just that, I want an organization that I support to use its clout to cover the average joes back and they dont!
Dont get me wrong DU is a great organization and does huge amounts of good for the quarry I love to chase the most but when it comes to using their mass membership to rally the troops so to speak they don not, even though the majority of them are consumptive users.
I could see them lobbying in Olympia if it had something to do with their mission statement but consumptive use and speaking up for the hunter is not.

I really get a kick out of the dude that sends in his 25 dollar membership to DU thinking that they supporting the consumptive user rights and privilages. Just makes me want to slap him in the face and say wake up dumb a ss! you are supporting wetland restoration and nothing more.

[Otto1]

for the record, I am doing a volunteer deal with DU in a couple of weeks that involves a youth shoot, I do support their efforts on a local basis as local chapters can organize events that promote our way of life and get youth involved in shooting and hunting but their bank roll from fundraising is spent on wetland management and restoration.

[jackelope]

I was just about to say that $25.00 from me is a small price to pay for habitat restoration....

[Otto1]

I was just about to say that $25.00 from me is a small price to pay for habitat restoration....

just dont say that your consumptive user privlages our backed by them LOL

they do great things for the wetlands and I support them for that, I have worked right along side them in that effort and will continue to.

[Krusty]

Well, I tried not to let this thread get hi-jacked, but since it is off in a new direction, I might as well address it.

"Lobbied" is perhaps too strong a word, it is probably more likely that some of these organization "believe" we need clarity and have said so, but did not spend any time or money actually paying a lobbiest or lobbying on their own (in Olympia).

I made the mistake of lumping them altogether, as fighting for the cause, because they share the belief that the cause is valid.

Some believe, some fight, I guess it's clear I can't tell one from the other. And should not have counted them as a single united front.

Once again I apologize.

Krusty

[bearmanric]

soon as all the season's are done. i'll be night calling bobcat's. i have a nice light force light and reall good flash light's. going to hunt some higher area's. i'll be hunting Selah alot this fall. not night there tho. cant wait. have a place to stay and great people. i have a feeling i might call one of my cougar's in there. Rick

[Krustypuff]

Red lens work so the hunter does not lose your night vision.