Lack of nice bulls in Quality hunt areas

[Coweemanslayer]

I'm pretty new to this forum so if I offend anybody I apologize. I've been hunting in SW Washington since I was 10 and it seems the population of good deer and elk keeps going down. I've read it seems like almost every post on this forum in the past year and there are a lot of people on here that have some pretty strong opinions. I recently just drew the Toutle Quality rifle permit and I'm pretty excited. I drew the archery tag back in 2006 and shot a 5x5 in the first 20 minutes of my hunt. It was a little disappointing just because I didn't get to hunt that long but it was more disappointing seeing how many bigger bulls I saw later in the day.

I saw somebody post a stat a while back about last year's results in the Toutle. 25 spikes were shot!!!  This really confuses me a lot. Why do we have people complaining that there are few quality hunts in WA but we have hunter's out there willing to shoot anything that has four legs. Last time I checked shooting a spike is like shooting a fawn. I guess I grew up with the mentality that I was out in the woods to be with my family experiencing good people and trying to get a chance at a nice animal. If I didn't get something well then at least it was a good time. At this point it seems like people are so concerned about getting that freezer full instead of enjoying what counts and that's being out in the outdoors. I can fully understand taking down a 3X3 but guys come on---SPIKES. Let's let these guys get bigger so everybody can start seeing some bigger bulls in these areas. I want to know what you guys all think about this topic.

[bucklucky]

2nd year Spikes are the bulls with poor genetics, not a bad deal to have spike get shot. Its the small 1st year bulls that are forks and 3 points that I want to see make it past that first antler year. I once talked to a biologist that was part of the spike only season in western Washington , they went to that because of all the poor genetics they were seeing with mature bulls that would never grow points, ever see the big bodied spikes running around? The heavy horned spikes that get killed that are the BIG spikes people refer too. More than likely piss poor genetics. I was told that there was such a high number of bulls on the west side that did not have the gene to fork up past the eyeguards, kind of wierd I know. Friend of mine killed a 48 inch spike with double eyeguards one year, Big mature bull . I wouldnt worry abou tthe guys killing spikes too much as that leaves more mature bulls for us  Sounds like the people killing spikes are doing what they set out to do and thats fill the tag. I have no problem with that, its there tag.

[Alan K]

Spikes used to be 80%+ of what got shot when it was any bull on the west side, and they're the vast majority of what fill tags on the east side. . . .

I think it's just guys holding out for a good bull as long as they can stand with their 'quality' tag, then choosing to take some meat home. . . Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.  People are 'taking theirs' while they have drawn the tag regardless of size. They might think a little differently if they knew they'd be hunting it the next year or even in the next couple years, but the draw odds just don't allow that unless you're extremely lucky.

Also, you could argue they shouldn't shoot anything less than a good 5x5 if they truly wanted the bulls to get to trophy status.  Shooting them as spikes or first year branched bulls doesn't make a difference. 

The game department could easily increase the point restriction to 5 point and the quality would boom in a couple years. It would just suck for everyone who was drawing as the bulls grew for the year or two.  I don't think this would be a bad idea for permit areas where indians don't hunt.

[Coweemanslayer]

That's true good point and thanks for the information.

[Coweemanslayer]

Spikes used to be 80%+ of what got shot when it was any bull on the west side, and they're the vast majority of what fill tags on the east side. . . .

I think it's just guys holding out for a good bull as long as they can stand with their 'quality' tag, then choosing to take some meat home. . . Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.  People are 'taking theirs' while they have drawn the tag regardless of size. They might think a little differently if they knew they'd be hunting it the next year or even in the next couple years, but the draw odds just don't allow that unless you're extremely lucky.

Also, you could argue they shouldn't shoot anything less than a good 5x5 if they truly wanted the bulls to get to trophy status.  Shooting them as spikes or first year branched bulls doesn't make a difference. 

The game department could easily increase the point restriction to 5 point and the quality would boom in a couple years. It would just suck for everyone who was drawing as the bulls grew for the year or two.  I don't think this would be a bad idea for permit areas where indians don't hunt.

I would love for them to change it to 5 point or better. I do see your point about spike or branched though. I guess I'm just tired of lazy road hunters on the westside of the state.

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

Some people were raised to hunt for the meat not the horns. Don't forget we pay big $$ for our license and tag if it's last day & they shoot a spike that means freezer is full ever heard of subsistence hunting? I do understand your point in the quality aspect.  But hell it could be a 10 yr olds first elk & I bet a spike would be a trophy to him.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Actually according to harvest report 32 spikes were shot !
not having hunted the area myself, and these were permits, could they have been "spike" permits ? or I could understand "any Elk" permit , for a meat hunter...
.........................................
on a different note, lets talk population dynamics, as in bull/cow ratio, and breeding..
In a healthy Elk herd you want to have 15-20 bulls for every 100 cows, and according to what I have read Toutle runs closer to 30-35..(?) 
In order for proper breeding, you want the genes of the stronger bulls passed on to the stronger cows, so in essence, you want the older, more mature animals doing the breeding.
With close to 1/3 of the animals being bulls, a significant portion are going to be yearling, and 1-4 year old bulls, and the younger bulls will be doing most of the breeding, as the "herd bull" will spend a lot of time and energy chasing off competitors, "satellite" bulls will sneak in, get-r-dun, and get out.
If that bull happens to be a spike, (not fully developed) or have "spike genes" (as in will probably be a spike forever, or at least until 4-5 yo) then his offspring will have that same gene.
In order to bread "quality" animals, you have to reduce the number of "inferior" genes in the pool, ie; remove spikes and rag-horns, to allow the bulls with desirable characteristics to pass on their genes.
All elk are not born equal, if you only shoot the larger antlered adults, or just the ones with mass and symmetry, that gene will gradually be thinned out.

[Wenatcheejay]

Spikes used to be 80%+ of what got shot when it was any bull on the west side, and they're the vast majority of what fill tags on the east side. . . .

I think it's just guys holding out for a good bull as long as they can stand with their 'quality' tag, then choosing to take some meat home. . . Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.  People are 'taking theirs' while they have drawn the tag regardless of size. They might think a little differently if they knew they'd be hunting it the next year or even in the next couple years, but the draw odds just don't allow that unless you're extremely lucky.

Also, you could argue they shouldn't shoot anything less than a good 5x5 if they truly wanted the bulls to get to trophy status.  Shooting them as spikes or first year branched bulls doesn't make a difference. 

The game department could easily increase the point restriction to 5 point and the quality would boom in a couple years. It would just suck for everyone who was drawing as the bulls grew for the year or two.  I don't think this would be a bad idea for permit areas where indians don't hunt.

I would love for them to change it to 5 point or better. I do see your point about spike or branched though. I guess I'm just tired of lazy road hunters on the westside of the state.

All you have to do to not see Road hunters is don't hunt the roads. All you have to do to not see Tribal Hunting is not hunt Public land, and pretty much where there are roads. Hunt private land. If you want really Big Bulls go to Arizona. I believe it is a Tribal Reservation that offers very quality hunts. But maybe I am wrong?

Washington has the potential for World Class Hunting. What I see however is a Department that does not have an interest in Managing GAME. If we want to really have a department that manages huntable species for human harvest then we need to push for a reestablishment of a department of GAME. Right now we have a department of PETA. 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

 
 
Now I see this thread going all sideways..

I guess I'm just tired of lazy road hunters on the westside of the state.

All you have to do to not see Road hunters is don't hunt the roads. All you have to do to not see Tribal Hunting is not hunt Public land, and pretty much where there are roads. Hunt private land. If you want really Big Bulls go to Arizona. I believe it is a Tribal Reservation that offers very quality hunts. But maybe I am wrong?

Washington has the potential for World Class Hunting. What I see however is a Department that does not have an interest in Managing GAME. If we want to really have a department that manages huntable species for human harvest then we need to push for a reestablishment of a department of GAME. Right now we have a department of PETA.

[MADMAX]

Back on track
I would shoot a spike before I ate my tag.
I enjoy elk meat.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

There are "quality" animals in almost every unit in Washington, spend a little time scouting during the off season and you see them sometimes.
I have chased some 300+ bulls in the Manastash, while "road hunters" drove right on by, air conditioner and radio running (East side, by the way)
Also stood 10 feet off a road on the west-side and had them drive by w/o seeing anything either, road hunting is a statewide issue.
The WDFW has an issue of attempting to please those that only want to hunt, those that only want meat, and those that want a "quality" hunt,
You can please some of the people, but not all of them.
If you want a quality animal, you have to put out the effort.
What I see and hear is representative of our society today, hunters want to go hunting and expect to be able to harvest a "trophy", yet putting the effort into actually hunting one is too hard 
Blame the WDFW, blame the "roadhunters", blame anybody they can because of limited opportunnity (they are not behind every tree), but if you do your research, put in the time, apply for permits, pass on the first one or two, you might get what you want, or you might not, that is why it is called "hunting" and not "shopping"

[MADMAX]

Well said
Trust me although I enjoy driving up the road in my truck I have no problem getting out and hiking or Mt biking.
I'm going on 53 and hunt with kids in their 20s most of the time.

[Wenatcheejay]

There are "quality" animals in almost every unit in Washington, spend a little time scouting during the off season and you see them sometimes.
I have chased some 300+ bulls in the Manastash, while "road hunters" drove right on by, air conditioner and radio running (East side, by the way)
Also stood 10 feet off a road on the west-side and had them drive by w/o seeing anything either, road hunting is a statewide issue.
The WDFW has an issue of attempting to please those that only want to hunt, those that only want meat, and those that want a "quality" hunt,
You can please some of the people, but not all of them.
If you want a quality animal, you have to put out the effort.
What I see and hear is representative of our society today, hunters want to go hunting and expect to be able to harvest a "trophy", yet putting the effort into actually hunting one is too hard 
Blame the WDFW, blame the "roadhunters", blame anybody they can because of limited opportunnity (they are not behind every tree), but if you do your research, put in the time, apply for permits, pass on the first one or two, you might get what you want, or you might not, that is why it is called "hunting" and not "shopping"

I agree with everything you said. I also do not see how simply stating that for those who do not like sharing the public land with other users then move to private land. For a little more money people can hunt their method and standards to their hearts content. They can manage the land for better opportunity. Lots of hunt club have antler restrictions. Nothing wrong with it. Nothing wrong with pointing out Quality Tribal Management instead of only complaining. Or, is there something wrong with that?

My point with the WDFW is it is not the IF&G. People need to undertand that.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Well said
Trust me although I enjoy driving up the road in my truck I have no problem getting out and hiking or Mt biking.
I'm going on 53 and hunt with kids in their 20s most of the time.

I enjoy driving/riding also, but during hunting season I cannot stay awake in a vehicle, I usually get up 3:30 or 4:00 and hunt on foot until after dark (8:00 PM), when I take a break and decide to do a little "scouting" my eyes just wont stay in focus looking out a window, they start to cross and other  weird stuff.
I also am not a "trophy" hunter, any legal animal is a "Trophy" to me.
I just have trouble finding anyone to hunt with, as hiking/hunting all day means they miss Bacon, eggs, and pancakes in camp and hanging around telling stories, shooting targets, roving stump-shoots, etc...
Then of course there is lunch and dinner..... (good cook at camp)
I live off coffee and a quick breakfast before light, pack a lunch and snacks, then hope for leftovers when I get back...

[TheHunt]

I do like that idea of restriction of three point or better being bumped up. 

Lets say next year it is 4 point or better.  Run that for a couple of years then bump it up to 5 point or better then leave it there. 

The meat hunters could still wack cows since we have cow tags. But this would provide better breeding stock and a better bull to cow ratio.