Four point minimum 117&121

[dscubame]

As this has been beaten to death before on other threads... 

The end result of this debate will inevitably be proven by the real world results stemming from the restriction implementation.  It will take a few years to start seeing the change in the deer management.

I am confident the outcome will show that WDFW, the biologists, and the majority that supported this decision will be positive for ALL interests.

[whacker1]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I also talked with Dana Base as well as the regional biologist from Spokane and Jerry Nelson head biologist from Olympia. They are ALL AGAINST this 4 point restriction. No scientific basis. It was pushed through by the Game Commissioner from Kettle Falls. I was warned about this going through by a local game warden last September. And I quote" the commissioner from Kettle Falls is in the back pocket of some large land owners and sportsman clubs and they want the restriction so they can shoot bigger bucks and then be able to charge more for their hunts"  NOT my words. These came from the warden who said" don't use my name." Everyone I talked to in the Wildlife Dept. told me not to use their names but stated pretty much the same. Political CRAP. Trophy hunting is a personal choice not a management tool. I do not shoot small bucks but I don't think I have the right to tell everyone including youth, disabled, and senior hunters that they can't shoot smaller bucks.Especially when it does nothing to increase the overall herd. Ask Mr. Nelson. I have read that this worked in Alabama and Pennsylvania. Do they have 7 feet of snow during the winter? Or huge populations of bear, cougar, coyotes, and now wolves? Hell no.I am in the field 12 months of the year in Stevens County and there are lots of mature bucks that escape to breed every year. I see them!!! No fawns is the result of the predators. Not unbred does.   ASK the biologists that were hired by the State of Washington to manage the deer herds. I have. In addition the local business' from Fruitland to Chewelah will feel the economic impact of this selfish restriction. They depend on the seasonal influx of out of area hunters to help them through the lean winters. Remember, hunting whitetail deer in Units 121&117 is for ALL hunters from everywhere. Not just the local and vocal "sportsman clubs and land owners. I know I'll get blasted by the trophy hunters and citizen scientists out there but I have a right to my position just as you do. You gotta have thick skin to put something like this up for comment!!! Also, If you have cancelled your hunting plans this year to 121 or 117 because of the 4 point restriction please let me know via PM or just reply.  Thanks.

I won't blast you.... This has been a very contentious debate the whole way through. 

The goals were to improve population.  There were lots of options put on the table that all resulted in lower opportunity and they only took action on 3 options: antler restriction and doe permits for deer and the insignificant extension of the spring bear season.

Some other options that were on the table: cut the late modern seasons back, cut the late archery season, go to a permit only, Simplify and extend the cougar season, earlier bear season, and others. 

The options that aren't able to be talked about is Cougar and bear baiting or hound hunting.   They could have simplified the Cougar season to any weapon Sept - March, but they didn't.  So the only predators that we can have an impact on are coyotes and bobcats. 

Hopefully, we can address the cougar season next time around.

[BULLBLASTER]

I am basing my opinion off of my experience hunting south of Spokane with 3 pt min and north with no restriction. I in general see more bucks south of town. I have seen loads of times a field in mid November with 30+ does and not a buck to.be seen even a spike. I don't see this south of town where there has been a restriction in place for numerous years.

[whacker1]

Yet another loss of opportunity without first trying the preferred alternative. 

Pope - what you were you saying was the preferred alternative?  I didn't follow that part of your post.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  The preferred alternative was to keep it at status quo, eliminate the special tags/antlerless, and we voted to approve funds (50k if I remember right) for a study to find out why the population isn't as healthy as it use to be.  We appropriated the 50K and asked for status quo.  I expected it to go that way with no opposition, and the WDFW biologists all (but one) agreeing the 4 point minimum would not accomplish the goal of trophy bucks.  Rather, it was a short term solution to increase overall population.  I don't know how the 4 point rules got into effect this year.  Someone has some serious pull within the WDFW to circumvent all the process.  Quite frustrating, really.

Thank you for explaining. 

[walt]

I am basing my opinion off of my experience hunting south of Spokane with 3 pt min and north with no restriction. I in general see more bucks south of town. I have seen loads of times a field in mid November with 30+ does and not a buck to.be seen even a spike. I don't see this south of town where there has been a restriction in place for numerous years.

apples to oranges. 

[baldopepper]

Personally I agree with Buckcanyon-I have a small cabin just a few miles from your lodge and was over there for part of the Muzzy hunt-saw lots of does and many (in fact most) had two fawns-looks like that herd is making a pretty good comeback.  Just my  but I think this concept of "trophy hunting" is something a lot of hunters are going to regret. As we continue to discourage more hunters by either outright restricting them from taking smaller bucks or discouraging them with the "trophy only" idea, we cut our own throats.  I suspect now in the state of Washington hunters are out numbered by anti hunters.  We certainly don't need to discourage any hunters (young, old or disabled) from going out in the field by belittling them for taking a smaller buck or restricting them from doing it.  Like Buckcanyon, I might be for this IF there was any real evidence that this helped the herds.  I've not seen any such evidence.  I'll probably take some heat also, that's ok, it's just my opinion and I'm pretty confident I've shot more trophy bucks (and small bucks) than 95% of the so called "trophy hunters" out there. Just keep in mind that those hunters who can afford to pay $5,000 to $10,000 for a hunt and those who would like to charge that much would love to see the whole state go with those restrictions. I'd sure hate to see hunting become a rich man only sport.

[BOWHUNTER45]

as far as youth go they should have it any deer in units that can support it ..I remember when my boys were 8 and they shot 2 pts when it was 3 pt for everyone else ..Well these 2 older fellas walked over to me Betching about them killing 2 pts and they could not ...well we had a few words and I told them to get the heck out of my camp ... They were seriously jealous and that did not go over with me to well ...I think youth up to 15 should have a little more opportunity ...You are only a kid once and they should see the best of it !!!

[thatdamguy]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2010/reports/deer_gmu_all.php
above is a link to the 2010 deer harvest report.

These number show that most of the deer harvested are 4 points!  I also agree with buck canyon lodge. The result of special interest groups and now the small towns that survive of hunting traffic and all the youth and disabled hunters have to suffer!

[UptheCreek]

It doesn't take a very old deer to have 4 pts on one side.  Most bucks with any kind of genetics will easily have that at 2 and a half years old.  If you just want meat, I am sure there are plenty of extra does tags that are given to several farmers around the area that will let you come over and bag one.  I am all for the 4 pt min. because you will start seeing more mature deer in the future which is more fun than watching 9 little spikes walk by your stand.  You may not be able to tell this year, but give it a year or two and hopefully you will be seeing many more mature bucks.  It might even require some hunters to actually get of their 4-wheelers, put down their beer, and hike a little to find a shooter buck.  Just my opinion.

[Co]

 

[runningboard]

when this 1st started I read a letter written by a fellow from one of the sportsman groups most in support of this, may actually have been who actually proposed it. It was full of emotion but not much science about how this was to benefit the herd. now some have pointed out some of that missing science, thank you folks.
but also some of the other groups (sportsman not guides) said they would be in support only if it did not apply to youth, elderly or disabled. well you can see what happened with that.
I guess now we can say, "Only time will tell" if this was the right decision or not & in a few years who will be able to say "I told you so."

[Miles]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I also talked with Dana Base as well as the regional biologist from Spokane and Jerry Nelson head biologist from Olympia. They are ALL AGAINST this 4 point restriction. No scientific basis. It was pushed through by the Game Commissioner from Kettle Falls. I was warned about this going through by a local game warden last September. And I quote" the commissioner from Kettle Falls is in the back pocket of some large land owners and sportsman clubs and they want the restriction so they can shoot bigger bucks and then be able to charge more for their hunts"  NOT my words. These came from the warden who said" don't use my name." Everyone I talked to in the Wildlife Dept. told me not to use their names but stated pretty much the same. Political CRAP. Trophy hunting is a personal choice not a management tool. I do not shoot small bucks but I don't think I have the right to tell everyone including youth, disabled, and senior hunters that they can't shoot smaller bucks.Especially when it does nothing to increase the overall herd. Ask Mr. Nelson. I have read that this worked in Alabama and Pennsylvania. Do they have 7 feet of snow during the winter? Or huge populations of bear, cougar, coyotes, and now wolves? Hell no.I am in the field 12 months of the year in Stevens County and there are lots of mature bucks that escape to breed every year. I see them!!! No fawns is the result of the predators. Not unbred does.   ASK the biologists that were hired by the State of Washington to manage the deer herds. I have. In addition the local business' from Fruitland to Chewelah will feel the economic impact of this selfish restriction. They depend on the seasonal influx of out of area hunters to help them through the lean winters. Remember, hunting whitetail deer in Units 121&117 is for ALL hunters from everywhere. Not just the local and vocal "sportsman clubs and land owners. I know I'll get blasted by the trophy hunters and citizen scientists out there but I have a right to my position just as you do. You gotta have thick skin to put something like this up for comment!!! Also, If you have cancelled your hunting plans this year to 121 or 117 because of the 4 point restriction please let me know via PM or just reply.  Thanks.

That summed it up rather well.  A person would have to be blind to not see what just happened.   I love how Bearpaw keeps mentioning these "landowners" that were there supporting this.  Gee, I wonder why...perhaps the expected increase in cash that will come in from leasing their land out to local guides (who can then advertise their hunts on private land in "trophy managed units").  It makes me sick.

[WAcoyotehunter]

There is a ton of biology behind the antler point regulation. 
Managing for a higher buck to doe ratio will increase the number of does that get covered.  There are dry does running around that should be covered- the problem is that the ratio is too high. 
The antler pt restriction will increase escapement of young bucks, which turn into mature bucks and are more effective breeders.  More effective breeders generally cover does on the first estrous, which encourages earlier fawning and higher winter survival because yearlings are better equipped for winter conditions. 
The idea is to increase the age structure of the bucks.  time will tell, but I think there will be lots of people singing the praises of the regulation in a few years.

[BOWHUNTER45]

All I can tell is that I have hunted Fruitland and Chewalah area now for over  15 yrs now and I am here to tell during Turkey season there is not much decline in whitetails that I can tell ...they are thick and everywhere..... Need to weed out a few more doe 

[Miles]

There is a ton of biology behind the antler point regulation. 

Both for and against.

   There are dry does running around that should be covered- the problem is that the ratio is too high. 
 

The fix is to shoot all the mature bucks this year, and allow all the yearlings to do the breeding?

The antler pt restriction will increase escapement of young bucks, which turn into mature bucks and are more effective breeders. 
 

So shoot the "mature effective breeders", but leave the young ones so they can grow up to be the "mature breeders" that we culled from the herd...  Got it.