Traditions Vortek

[WonkyWapiti]

So today my buddy drags me down to Sportco with him to pick up a new muzzleloader, his new Traditions NW Edition Vortek in camo arrived.  While we were checking it out we noticed the nipple seemed rather big for a No 11 so we asked the salesman to pull out some 11's and musket caps to compare.  The 11's were too small and the musket caps fit.  When did Traditions start shipping these with musket caps?  The other rifle they received in the shipment with this one had the same nipple.  Looking at the Traditions website and all the other literature on the web these things are supposed to have the No 11 nipple and I can't find anything about a musket cap nipple.  On a side note my other hunting buddy bought one of these late last year and that one definitely came with a No 11 nipple. 

What light can any of you shed on this? 

[carpsniperg2]

Weird! They come with a note that says not to use a musket nipple in them and it will void the warranty if you do. Unless they just changed something with them. They said the parts in that gun would not take the pressure of the musket caps. I am sure if he looks in the manual it will say it is supposed to use #11 and not muskets. But it is weird that it would not fit the number 11's. I bought one so I know what I am saying is true, unless they changed it in the last year, "which they could have" I took mine back after it about killed me one day. Good luck to him tell him to call them and get it sorted out.

[bobcat]

That IS weird! I remember the discussion on here a while back about whether it was possible to use a musket cap nipple on a Vortek. And the manufacturer definitely was saying not to. I was never really sure whether to believe that warning or not, because I don't understand why a musket cap would produce any higher pressures than a #11 cap. It should be the amount of powder and the bullet that determine the pressure and whether it's a safe load.

[WonkyWapiti]

I'll have my buddy call Traditions on Monday to get this sorted out.  I'd hate to have him shoot it only to find out they screwed up and put the wrong nipple on it especially if it is against manufacturer recommendations.

[WonkyWapiti]

Ok this gets more interesting.  My buddy and I are talking on the phone about all of this and he is looking at his rifle and it is not just the Traditions Vortek NW Edition.  Apparently it is a Traditions Vortek NW Magnum Edition.  There is a change in his manual which states this gun is designed to be shot with a musket cap only and there are dire warnings about not interchanging it with a No 11  nipple.  I can't find anything about this NW Magnum edition on their website.

[carpsniperg2]

Very very weird! Mybe I complained to them enough when I was buying one they decided to change it over. But it makes no sense that you could not go down to a #11 with a gun setup to handle musket caps.

[hoyt2002]

I just got one the other day it says musket caps only.

[carpsniperg2]

I just got one the other day it says musket caps only.

You must have got the "NEW" mag version that they have just put out. Not the old #11 only gun. Crazy company! Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore.

[Sabotloader]

carpsniperg2

Reading through these posts, really has me wondering... I do not have a Traditions, actually I do not think I have every had a Traditions anything, but I am really wondering what is going on.  Ignition wise there is virtually no difference between a #11 Mag cap and a Musket Cap, the musket cap is a bit hotter than a regulaer #11 cap but the Mag cap and the Musket cap produce the same amount of heat.  The musket cap does have a longer duration of burn, but that is about it.  The RWS #1075 Mag cap is probably the hottest #11 made but it should not cause any different ignition than any of the other caps.

Could the reasoning come from something mechanical in the way the cap is struck by the Vortek or even the blow back pressures felt on the nipple?

Or could it be... and probably is... since the nipple and cap are exposed - they might be worried about shrapnel from the cap.  #11 caps can virtually explode in peices sending piece of copper out of the nipple area as small missles... and other the other hand the musket cap is more solid and does not blow up as much.  I would bet it is a liability thing...

As with the TC Northwest Hunter the opening is directly above the breech so getting #11 particles out of that opening would not be a problem, and possibly getting those particles in your eyes... gotta be a liability concern.

[carpsniperg2]

carpsniperg2

Reading through these posts, really has me wondering... I do not have a Traditions, actually I do not think I have every had a Traditions anything, but I am really wondering what is going on.  Ignition wise there is virtually no difference between a #11 Mag cap and a Musket Cap, the musket cap is a bit hotter than a regulaer #11 cap but the Mag cap and the Musket cap produce the same amount of heat.  The musket cap does have a longer duration of burn, but that is about it.  The RWS #1075 Mag cap is probably the hottest #11 made but it should not cause any different ignition than any of the other caps.

Could the reasoning come from something mechanical in the way the cap is struck by the Vortek or even the blow back pressures felt on the nipple?

Or could it be... and probably is... since the nipple and cap are exposed - they might be worried about shrapnel from the cap.  #11 caps can virtually explode in peices sending piece of copper out of the nipple area as small missles... and other the other hand the musket cap is more solid and does not blow up as much.  I would bet it is a liability thing...

As with the TC Northwest Hunter the opening is directly above the breech so getting #11 particles out of that opening would not be a problem, and possibly getting those particles in your eyes... gotta be a liability concern.

That is a good point but I think it more has to do with the firing parts of the gun. The musket cap does produce more pressure and does burn longer. I have read many articles that have done a lot of testing on diffrent caps. Yes there is not a big difference between a Mag 11 and a musket cap. But there still is more burning power behind the musket cap. So in my mind it is hotter and does produce more pressure. With the location on the hole in the top of the breech there is not as much of a chance to get particles that blow back into your face but still a possibility.

[Sabotloader]

That is a good point but I think it more has to do with the firing parts of the gun.

That is the only other thing besides liability that i can think of..

The musket cap does produce more pressure and does burn longer. I have read many articles that have done a lot of testing on different caps. Yes there is not a big difference between a Mag 11 and a musket cap. But there still is more burning power behind the musket cap.

You are correct the musket cap does have a longer burn time, but there is virtually no difference in heat or pressure since that is what the #11 mag was built for.  Remington now has a #11 Mag cap that is suppose to be 40% hotter but I think that number may be stretched a bit, because i think the are built by CCI.  The German RWS Dynamint Noble is hotter than any of the American Caps.

Length of burn has no value unless the powder is moist and you are drying the powder, or the powder is a long ways away from the nose of the nipple, once ignition begins the burning rate and temperature of BP or any of the subs if far hotter and faster than any cap.

Most but not all have switched back to the #11 Mag to get away from the top hat design and also to get a tighter, non-slip grip, and therefore more waterproof grip on the nipple since we have to hunt with an open breech.

It was true for so long that the Musket was superior to the #11 it is hard to turn things around, but if you email CCI and ask them they can give you the numbers that defy the old school learning, which i finally broke free of.

So in my mind it is hotter and does produce more pressure. With the location on the hole in the top of the breech there is not as much of a chance to get particles that blow back into your face but still a possibility.

Here in Idaho we have pretty much the same ML rules as you do, I am using a Knight DISC Extreme with a cap breech plug, which you can use either a #11 or Musket cap with.  The breech hole is on the side so it reduces the exposure to flying debris.


This is Knight exposure...



I just remove the scope for ML install the cap breech plug and I am off...

[Bigshooter]

I talked to a guy at wholesale sports a few weeks ago and he told me they were not going to make the Vortek anymore.  I can't remember what they were going to call the new modle now.  But he told me that it was going to shoot musket caps and have a fiber optic sight.

[jbender]

I know these are old posts but I was searching about posts regarding the Traditions Vortek.  I have the Vortek Northwest Magnum Edition.  I have another friend who has the regular NW Edition.  We called the company and evidently there is a 300th of an inch difference in the #11 nipple and the musket cap nipple.  They urge not to change them over.  I think this may be why some earlier posts were complaining about the gun going off when they close the chamber.  I will bet those people may have changed over the nipple against the companies advise.  I have heard good and bad things about this gun.  I have nothing but good things to say about how it feels and shoots.  I just shot my first muzzle loader buck with it this last week. 

Happy Hunting and stay safe