barnes tmz not so sure

[teanawayslayer]

So I was out deer hunting yesterday and blasted this buck from around 75 yards.  Hit him good, he went straight to the ground.  Wich is what I expected from the barnes.  As I was reloading the buck was kicking around on the ground but not going anywhere.  A couple of seconds later I look up and the buck is lumbering off into some brush.  I take a quick shot before he disapeared.  I missed.  So I give him around a half an hour and started to follow the blood trail.  I found good blood here and there and would loose it for a while and find it again.  5 hours later lose blood and can not find the buck.  I just switch to barnes this season.  Now in the past I used powerbelts and have never had a deer run off.  I know the barnes perform well from the tests and from people being successful with them but I think I may head back towards the powerbelts. 

[deerslyr]

My buddy had the same exact thing happen to him on a blacktail on wednesday night with the same bullet! He luckily found the buck and had to put 2 more into him. He hit the buck in the shoulder and it managed to run off quite a ways before he found it again. I couldnt understand why considering I have shot 2 bucks with power belts in the shoulder and it completely dumped both of them. I figured the barnes would be a better bullet than the PBs but apparently not

[Dirty Mike]

i shot a big mule deer do quartering towards me, hit should ran 20 yards and droped dead, mule deer buck last season 75 yards quartering away droped in the tracks dead. maybe yo didnt hit it in a good place? happens to the best of us sometimes who knows

[engelwood]

I can't complain about the TMZ's, they have been AWESOME bullets for me. Maybe you didn't hit it as well as you had hoped? 

[Sabotloader]

teanawayslayer

I am not real familiar with Barnes bullets because I do not use them, I have always been stuck on Nosler Partitions in the past, but what I can suggest to you from the information I have collected over time.

There are times, certainly not always, that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges, especially Barnes with very small HP or pointed tips.  The older Barnes with the big wide open hollow point do not seem to fall into this problem.

Yet these same bullets will perform extremely well at the longer ranges...

[bobcat]

There are times that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges

That statement doesn't sound right to me. If anything, a bullet will "pencil through" at longer ranges. The reason for "penciling through" or, in other words, not expanding, is that the bullet's speed is not enough to initiate expansion. This is true with all bullets. They will always expand more at higher velocities, which translates to "closer ranges". So, a bullet that does not expand at a short distance sure is not going to expand more at a longer distance, where the bullet has less velocity.

[Sabotloader]

There are times that a Barnes all copper bullet can pencil through an animal at the closer ranges

That statement doesn't sound right to me. If anything, a bullet will "pencil through" at longer ranges. The reason for "penciling through" or, in other words, not expanding, is that the bullet's speed is not enough to initiate expansion. This is true with all bullets. They will always expand more at higher velocities, which translates to "closer ranges". So, a bullet that does not expand at a short distance sure is not going to expand more at a longer distance, where the bullet has less velocity.

At the longer ranges, even though the bullet has less velocity – if it has enough energy – it will have time to expand in a small area such as a broadside shot on a whitetail.

You would think what you are indicating would be the norm, but I believe you would see the difference in actuality…

In the normal situation the closed HP or Spire point bullet is loaded to near max velocity in an effort to cover the bases from a short range shot to a long range shot.  An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.  If that same bullet with the same velocity were shot into a thicker, tougher skinned animal such as an elk that same bullet would function as we might expect.

Then at extended ranges that same bullet with lost velocity has time to do its job in a thinned skinned whitetail.

People have tested this, (at close) range shooting zip lock bags of water.  The bullet cuts such a nice clean neat little hole – it is just out of the bag before it can expand to its extent.

[bobcat]

An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.

 
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.

[deerslyr]

Now that you mention that Sabotloader he said he was only 20-30 yards away from that buck when he shot it. Makes perfect sense to me.

[Rick]

An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.

 
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.

I've argued this "theory" with Sabotloader and carpsniperg2 before. They both claim higher velocity means the bullet will zip through a deer before it can expand.

Their theory just doesn't make sense.

I'm with you,I think they're wrong.

[teanawayslayer]

I was using 100 grains of 3f and was thinking it didn't have the right amount of velocity.  Would it be better to you 80 to 90 grains of powder rather than a 100?  I changed my whole set up this year from what I had used in the past and it didn't seem to work as well.  But I like the new set up I guess it's just time to fine tune it.

[bobcat]

Only drop your powder charge if doing so gives you better accuracy. But otherwise, more velocity is better, especially with a Barnes bullet. Now with a Powerbelt I could see keeping the velocity down somewhat, but not with a Barnes.

[Sabotloader]

An all copper closed HP or SPoint bullet traveling at near max velocity will enter and exit a thin skinned deer without having time to expand before it is out of the animal and traveling on.

 
I've heard this theory before, but sorry, I just can't agree with it. It goes against the laws of physics, and I've never read anything by an expert on this subject that would indicate that this is possible. I bet Barnes would confirm that high velocity does not cause a bullet to "pencil" through an animal without expanding.

I've argued this "theory" with Sabotloader and carpsniperg2 before. They both claim higher velocity means the bullet will zip through a deer before it can expand.

Their theory just doesn't make sense.

I'm with you,I think they're wrong.

Rick, what it comes down to is the frontal area of the bullet, especially at muzzleloader velocities.  If the frontal area is so small and so sharp  - unless the bullet hits a bone or is in the animals body long enough to allow expansion to occur - nothing really starts expansion.

Ages ago… some guy named Keith recognized this very factor and created what we now call the Keith Nose bullet.  The flat nose on these bullets increases the frontal area of the bullet so that on contact with the animals hide the exposed large frontal area begins the expansion of the bullet right away.

On the other if you look at all the pistol bullets out there for a 45 cal pistol you will probably find the same Keith nose effect has been built into the bullet by increase the contact surface of the nose of the bullet.

This penciling effect was first observed with the development of the SST/Shock Wave class bullet.  I am not a Barnes fan – so I am not aware of all of their bullets.. but if the TMZ is a closed HP and on top of that if it is all copper… the expansion can even be delayed longer.  The opposite of this is true is if you are shooting a thicker skinned animal or you shoot through a bone, something to start expansion, or an animal at longer ranges when the velocity of the bullet has decreased causing the bullet to make a more difficult penetration of the hide.

[sirmissalot]

Sounds to me like it wasn't a very good shot. Maybe a high shoulder shot. Sorry to hear about your luck. And I don't believe in bullets not expanding at close range, long range yes, close range no.

[teanawayslayer]

Sounds to me like it wasn't a very good shot. Maybe a high shoulder shot. Sorry to hear about your luck. And I don't believe in bullets not expanding at close range, long range yes, close range no.

You know I had a good shot I have killed a lot of deer When that buck hit the deck I know it was a good shot.  I have never had a buck get away with a muzzle loader.  Infact don't take more than a few steps.  First time for everything But I do know I had a good shot.