The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[CedarPants]

I'm on the fence with the multi-season success rate aspect of this.  The stats seem to point towards more deer being harvested if we all had the option of hunting multiple seasons .... but then again, like you said Colock ...... the guys purchasing the multi-season tags would do so because they think it would give them more opportunity.  I honestly think there is a huge percentag of people out there that, if given the chance, would still be unsuccessful no matter what weapon they use because they aren't willilng to put in the time and effort required.  They fail to attribute their lack of success to the fact that they keep doing the same thing in the same place every year despite the fact that they haven't tagged out in 5 years.  Those of us that tag out every year know that no matter what time of year, what weapon, etc .... we are going to tag out.  A large proportion of people attribute their lack of success to "too few days allowed", or "if only I could hunt archery AND modern", or "I get shorted 3 days before the prime rut".  When it comes down to it, if you want to fill a deer tag - you can ... its just a matter of how much effort you want to put in.  My

[colockumelk]

Totally agree with you Cedarpants. That is very true. I personally think the Multiseason tag is a rip off. I mean it costs $180 bucks and you only get to shoot 1 deer. Since you are buying the quivelant price (when its all said and done) like 4 tags you should be able to harvest a deer with each weapon.  I don't buy it because I'm gonna get my deer each year regardless so why pay an extra $180

Note* I did eat my deer tag this year in WA. Because I already had an elk to bring back to NY so I horn hunted. Passed on numerous does and a small buck. Missed a 150 class Muley though.

[True Sportsman]

I'm on the fence with the multi-season success rate aspect of this.  The stats seem to point towards more deer being harvested if we all had the option of hunting multiple seasons .... but then again, like you said Colock ...... the guys purchasing the multi-season tags would do so because they think it would give them more opportunity.  I honestly think there is a huge percentag of people out there that, if given the chance, would still be unsuccessful no matter what weapon they use because they aren't willilng to put in the time and effort required.  They fail to attribute their lack of success to the fact that they keep doing the same thing in the same place every year despite the fact that they haven't tagged out in 5 years.  Those of us that tag out every year know that no matter what time of year, what weapon, etc .... we are going to tag out.  A large proportion of people attribute their lack of success to "too few days allowed", or "if only I could hunt archery AND modern", or "I get shorted 3 days before the prime rut".  When it comes down to it, if you want to fill a deer tag - you can ... its just a matter of how much effort you want to put in.  My

I couldn't agree more. 90% of the deer are killed by 10% of the people. People just cant figure it out.

[Biggerhammer]

There has been alot of debate on here lately about whether or not the APR's (Antler Point Restrictions) work. I personally believe that they work.  But I'm not the type of guy to spout off about something without at least researching it and looking into it myself.  I think that this particular debate is EXTREMELY important for our deer herd.  Because whether it works or not is going to have a huge impact on the future of our deer hunting.  So I am not going to preach my opinions on why APR works because since I didn't do any of my own research it would be just that.  An opinion not fact.  Instead I used google and googled a bunch of APR studies, cull studies, doe harvest studies and adult sex ratio's. 

To sum it up.  Culling "managment bucks" only has an effect on small herds that are enclosed (Texas high fence) in larger areas they have 0 effect.  So cull away if it makes you feel better but it doesn't do anything.  APR's are meant to do 3 things.  1 They are not meant to make "Trohpy" units they are meant to make "Quality" units.  By increasing the age class of the bucks.  2. Increase doe harvest and 3. Overall increase the pre-hunting season buck:doe ratio as close to 1:1 as possible.  APR's reduce the amount of buck harvest and increase the amount of doe harvest. 

So go ahead and flame on and please before you flame about how they are stupid and don't work. Or how you can't compare WA to PA, or ND or to Eastern ID.  Please take the time and read the articles.  You'll at least learn some stuff.  Look at the attachements as well.  Because there is a really good article about Antler Point Restrictions. 

CULLING "Managment Bucks"
http://www.americanhunter.org/blogs/culling-bucks/ 

Antler Point Restrictions: Purpose
http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/deer-biologymanagement/protecting-yearling/

http://www.whitetailinstitute.com/info/news/aug03/6.html

Adult Sex Ratio
http://www.qdma.com/what-we-do/articles/deer-biologymanagement/adult-sex-ratios/

A buck to doe ratio as close to 1/1 LMAO!!! How many years? They are so far away from that, that it is comical to read!!

[muleyguy]

56,000 thousand hunter days...........think about that number......

name the two units in WA state that, combined, have 56,000 hunter days in them?

117 and 121..........

NO other 2 units in the State are even REMOTELY close to the amount of hunting pressure that these two units receive;

two problems here;  first is the obvious, without a doe option of hunting, the pressure put on the mature buck population will increase dramatically;

the reason  APR's might seem to work South of I-90 to some is because the hunter pressure is far LOWER;

You focus 56,000 hunter days on the mature segment of the deer population what do you think is going to happen???

some will argue that hunter days are down in those two units this year;  probably true, but, without a corresponding tag decrease, many of those hunter days simply "leak out" to other units, which puts more pressure on those units'

its like a balloon;  you push on one side, a bulge just appears on the other side;  my guess is that you will not see any appreciable statewide decrease in hunter day numbers for 2011;

so, the reality is going to be that you just transferred these hunter days out of 117 and 121 into other units  (how convenient for local landowners in these units.....)

the reason that hunter pressure might be down (we can look at the reports next year) in those units this year is because the hunter population is not dumb, as some of you think we are;  people choose to hunt other units this year because they knew that the available buck population will be much greater next year (just 2.5 yr olds though......)

I can guarantee you that if there was any decrease in hunter days in those units this year, it will rebound right back to where it was next year when this years 1.5 yr olds are 2.5 yr olds;

Look for increases in 5 pt + buck harvest in those two units in both 2011 and 2012;  these increases will come about in spite of there being NO "new" bucks in this class from the regulations beause it is too early in the management scheme.

this continued focus on hunters instead of hunter days is part of the problem;  hunter days have been going up over the years, while hunter numbers have been going down;  this is why in spite of all the "rhetoric" you here about the sport dying you continue to see MORE people year in and year out;  its because we are basically chasing each other all over the state.......

the problem with deer management in this state is that when you give all of us a general tag so we can hunt any species anyplace in the State, when you change the regulations in one unit it just pushes hunter out into other units;  it just transfers the problem.

[buckfvr]

If only WDFW management TRULEY cared about our herds.........its just a cash cow, dream up more ways to compell us into spending more money on a failed system in hopes of gaining higher success........

I spend a great deal of time observing things here in 121......there is something to do virtually every day, year'round.  Im retired and still reasonably young,  and its what I do.  I did see more legal bucks this year, by far, than spikes and small forked horns.  SInce there is state ground just up the road from me that gets many modern season camps ( usually ),  I can ( normally ) swing through and see whats up with the hunters.  Not this year......only a couple of camps, not seeing anything, no deer, yada....yada.....yada.  Same results, WAY less hunters who traveled here.  Locals still hunted their favorite haunts, but travelers were down hugely from what I saw.  That being said, late modern probably produced for locals as well as it normally does. 

Yes, the ballon analogy is correct.......I think some of the neighboring units saw more hunters, but if there was a noticeable lack of success, some of it could be chalked up to learing curve for a new area.  Maybe the only alternative to being intimately familiar with the area you hunt is incredible luck.    I'll add another yes regarding success......it is and always has been relative to effort. 

We will now have to see if the APR works here ( 121, 117 ) or not.....  If not,  we scream like hell to get it changed......but at what cost???  I think the late modern season will ultimately take a hit, as in making it permit only......

[steen]

My thoughts are mostly on blacktail.  It is any buck for modern and archers can take does later in the season.  Right in our area which is lowland blacktails near I-5 and close to the Canadian border there are alot of deer.  Most of the time you can't see them due to the thick cover.  From a local standpoint we usually fill most of our tags.  We may spend 3-6 days hunting in eastern Wa and fill our tag once in 5 years but usually finish at home and fill it 80% of the time.  Younger hunters usually take the smaller bucks but hunters who have taken muliple deer may pass on the smaller bucks, even my 17 year old passed on a spike this year but did not fill her tag (she also only put in 3-4 days of hunting).  The non antler restriction doesn't seem to hurt this area because the cover is so thick and the big boys just hide or stay nocturnal.  Usually the bigger ones are taken during the rut.  In our nieghborhood we've seen 3 bucks regularly before the season but never during the season (these were 1x1,2x2 and a 2x3).  All young bucks but still smart enough to go nocturnal during the season.  If we see them in our apple trees in the spring again they all survived but who knows.  There are alot of mature bucks around and many survive the season.  I just think the blacktail is unique, especially in our area and the foothills with all  the cover.  the numbers and ratios are pretty good.  I'm not giving an opinion just my observation.  Probably the best way to manage deer populations is by age (body size)  and not antler points but it is way to hard to regulate ( that is as much  of an opinion I will give).  I still like to know I can hunt every year and not just when I draw.  It is going to get very hard with the new draw system if you draw more than one tag.  A good problem if you have plenty of time and money to hunt but not everyone does.  I'm a meat hunter first, trophy hunting is expensive especially when you mount them all.