Deer and Elk Hunting in Idaho and Montana After Wolf Introduction

[Gringo31]

I told you Machias, i truely think this dude is PETA.  No way a hunter could come up with this garbage.

And man generally passes on the small and the weak/sick/injured. Wolves specifically target those animals. They can limit disease outbreaks. Wolves are continually sizing up prospective meals.  Biologically, it's not in a wolf's best interest to work any harder than it has to to kill something. Strong healthy animals are dangerous to a wolf. A kick in the jaw or ribs can be crippling or even fatal.  Do they take healthy animals? sure they do, but if there's a weak one and a healthy one, the weak one gets taken out most of the time.

The way I read this is the same I've read the crap coming from the wolf huggers.  They want to "open our eyes" to how good they are for the deer and elk populations.  They bring up this very novel idea that they eat the weak, limit disease outbreaks (if you are against disease, why aren't you arguing for putting a stop to the feeding stations?), and that strong healthy animals are dangerous to a wolf (we'll leave out what happens when there is a pack of wolves).

My point is that these pro-wolfers seem to forget that we already had predators that do this very same thing.  So the deer/elk herd is not getting a "bonus" from wolf intoduction.  If habitat is limited, so is carrying capacity.  If then we add a bunch of other animals that eat said deer and elk (I'll leave off the waste and joy kills) we will have less of them, especially when they kill what they kill with no regulation.  Silly libs want more and more regulation on EVERYTHING, but not animals.  THey are good and supporting laws and rules that affect "other" people as long as they feel better about it.

I will agree that wolves aren't the end to hunging IF WE MANAGE THEM!  They are here to stay as is the coyote.  If we were to treat/manage them the same as a coyote today, they are here to stay.  The longer we wait, the more out of whack this thing will get and eventually we will be to where we will be trying to kill em all.

But, we havent screwed the whole thing up enough yet or pissed off enough hunters who "hopefully" will walk away from their heritage forever. 

I see guys like Sitka as being good intentioned but horribly wrong.  They say we are hard headed and don't get it.  My point is that I think we get it perfectly.  We just want to protect what we have.  We believe in conservation not the preservation idea that we should walk away, never to touch, enter, or let alone harvest, watching from a distance in awe.

 

[Wenatcheejay]

Good read! We needed some bio backup that the world isn't fluffy as some people make it out to be. Guys, it's obvious sitka's responses are well thought out and laid out, even the false ones. The argument is well placed and nearly complete until some of you choose to test it by pulling a string. It's obvious sitka is what he is and has been since page one. I like to opportunity to hone an argument against the anti's and sitka provides that practice. Sitka, you still never said what we have to gain by having wolves here again.

Well, actually what I gleened was that wolves only cull the weakest in a herd. My take on that would be wolves eat pregnant cows for one. I guess all the evidence I have seen of killed branched antler bulls and young cows were photoshoped?

Sitka also said that tags could be issued but we hunters ONLY take the largest animals in the herd. No human hunter would ever take a cow, spike, true spike, or young bull. Every person is a trophy horn hunter accept for Sitka's brother. That is definatly a scientific rooted believe not an opinion or emotional one.

If Sitka simply was honest and said "Yes" we seek to and are suceeding end the current model of Wild Game Management and Ranching practices I'd leave her alone, that we could agree on. This is 100% political. For now she and her's own the State and WDFW. It does not matter if there is still an honest Bio or LE left in that Department, like any soldier they do as the Law or directive order. It is the mandate that will change the direction.

[Machias]

The Clearwater herd must have been nothing but sick and weak elk.  They went from 16,000+ elk to a little over 2,000 elk....I guess there were 14,000+ that were all just old, sick and weak.

[Wenatcheejay]

The Clearwater herd must have been nothing but sick and weak elk.  They went from 16,000+ elk to a little over 2,000 elk....I guess there were 14,000+ that were all just old, sick and weak.

Lolo Elk Herd, Idaho
Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 1,700

Gallitan Valley Elk Herd
Before Wolf Introduction: 1,500
After Wolf Introduction: 200

Yellowstone Elk Herd
Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 6,500

Jackson, WY Shiras Moose
Before Wolf Introduction: 1,200
After Wolf Introduction: 120

(Source B.G.F.)

All also sick weak and old? Perhaps, the definition of "the weak" are those that were eaten or ran into the ground.

The goal? Distroy the abundance of wildlife that is the cornerstone of The North American Model of Game Management.

Anyone get a count on NE deer populations? How are they fairing? Oh wait, they are not doing studies there.

[JJB11B]

The Clearwater herd must have been nothing but sick and weak elk.  They went from 16,000+ elk to a little over 2,000 elk....I guess there were 14,000+ that were all just old, sick and weak.

Lolo Elk Herd, Idaho
Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 1,700

Gallitan Valley Elk Herd
Before Wolf Introduction: 1,500
After Wolf Introduction: 200

Yellowstone Elk Herd
Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 6,500

Jackson, WY Shiras Moose
Before Wolf Introduction: 1,200
After Wolf Introduction: 120

(Source B.G.F.)

All also sick weak and old? Perhaps, the definition of "the weak" are those that were eaten or ran into the ground.

The goal? Distroy the abundance of wildlife that is the cornerstone of The North American Model of Game Management.

Anyone get a count on NE deer populations? How are they fairing? Oh wait, they are not doing studies there.

And the Blue Mountain Herd in Washington has Vanished too!

[Gringo31]

Those had to be due to hard winters.  Remember "they were on the decline before the wolves"....so therefore wolves had zero impact.

[JimmyHoffa]

And man generally passes on the small and the weak/sick/injured.

True spikes?  Cow tags?  Does?

[JJB11B]

right and over pressure by the fur trade didnt almost put the buffulo into extinction

[Sitka_Blacktail]

 (if you are against disease, why aren't you arguing for putting a stop to the feeding stations?),

As a matter of fact, I am against feeding stations. Besides unnaturally congregating animals in one spot where disease is easily spread, it also turns them into a shooting gallery for some.  ;^)

[Machias]

 (if you are against disease, why aren't you arguing for putting a stop to the feeding stations?),

As a matter of fact, I am against feeding stations. Besides unnaturally congregating animals in one spot where disease is easily spread, it also turns them into a shooting gallery for some.  ;^)

There we go, finally something we agree on!   

[Sitka_Blacktail]

There we go, finally something we agree on!   

Here's a quote from an article about the Jackson Hole feeding program.

"The refuge and the Wyoming Game and Fish Department try to delay the onset of supplemental feeding as long as possible to reduce the amount of time the animals spend crowded together on feed lines. Researchers say crowded conditions increase the chance diseases like brucellosis are transmitted.

“We have to balance those [disease] concerns against other objectives, which is to minimize conflicts and commingling with livestock ... and minimizing winter elk starvation,” Cole said.

Elk have not yet begun to leave the refuge for livestock operations. Cole called this year’s start date a pre-emptive effort to keep elk away from cattle."

Looks like they are walking a fine line between trying to keep elk and cattle apart and keeping disease from spreading back and forth between them and concentrating the elk together in one spot for too long.

I don't doubt we have many other things we agree on Machias.  Just because we have a fundamental disagreement over the effects of wolves doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other things we agree on.

[Machias]

I don't doubt we have many other things we agree on Machias.  Just because we have a fundamental disagreement over the effects of wolves doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other things we agree on.

I think you might just be right.  I was closer to your position on the wolves several years ago...until I started spending more and more time in the Lolo, the Joe and other parts of Idaho, then I saw first hand, it is as bad as many had predicted.   

[bearpaw]

Sitka is no hunter, these Peta guys love to claim they are hunters so they can push their agenda by baiting hunters into their thinking, don't be fooled. Go through this topic, there is an abundance of data from many of us and opinion from sitka. The only value of this topic is that he is providing a good education to you guys about how the wolf lovers think and work.

[jackmaster]

ya got that right bearpaw, thats exactly what he is, i am doing my part and making damn sure my 16yr old son and 14 yr old daughter are smart enough to see through poeple like sitkas B.S, its a damn shame when when the antis are more about their own political agenda than the animals they pretend to care so much about, they are all just like corrupt politicians, they only care what it is going to gain for them personally, and it humors me that people like sitka can come on to this site and be naive enough to think we would fall in line with their way of thinking.... guess he picked the wrong site   

[bearpaw]

Right on jackmaster, anyone who reads this topic from the first post to the end can clearly see that this guy has no real facts for his emotional argument and the few facts he tries to use have actually been proven to be flawed science.