Wedge Pack: More cattle attacked in Stevens County (poll and letter)

[Kola16]

I am looking at the issue from both sides

It sounds very one-sided to me.

[GameHunter1959]

So you wouldn't move, and you'd wipe out the pack.   Got it. I said I would do it legally first, but if I felt helpless, I would wipe out the pack and take my chances.

Your message to other ranchers though is that they should just move.  I said they should move IF IT IS THAT BAD AND THEY CANT TAKE THE HEAT. Your trying to take things out of context to win an argument, which you already lost.

In your next conversation with WDFW (since you claim to have contacted them regarding the topics on this forum, right after claiming to not care about peoples opinions on this forum),feel free to make them aware of how you'd handle things per this conversation.
I dont care about the opinions in this forum. I dont own a ranch, so no need to make them aware.

Not that they aren't already aware, considering not only do they monitor this forum but are have members on it. I dont give 2 poops if they monitor this. What does the game department have to do with my opinions. Its like you think you
are going to scare me or something. ooooowwwwww the game department is reading this. Big deal!
I feel you are trying to make a misplaced point, or you are fishing.  Won't find many bites here
Not fishing, just an opinion
[/quote]

[GameHunter1959]

Looking at both sides is no problem.  Suggesting that other people should move in a situation where you admittedly would take matters into your own hands if it was you makes no sense.  I don't think anyone here is faulting you for offering a different perspective

You actually dont make sense. You asked me if I would move or shoot off the pack. My response was that I would try and handle it legally (meaning through the game department). If I was getting nowhere, then I would take MY chances. I suggested that if the RANCHERS could not get anything done, whether that be legally or non legally, to MOVE if they cant accept the consequences associated with wolves. ONLY IF IT WAS THAT BAD! You eed to go back and read the last 2 pages of the topic. Your trying to twist things and take stuff out of context, to win an argument that you lost 3 pages ago. Now your making yourself look bad. Im trying to help you here.

[silverdalesauer]

So you wouldn't move, and you'd wipe out the pack.   Got it. I said I would do it legally first, but if I felt helpless, I would wipe out the pack and take my chances.

Your message to other ranchers though is that they should just move.  I said they should move IF IT IS THAT BAD AND THEY CANT TAKE THE HEAT. Your trying to take things out of context to win an argument, which you already lost.

In your next conversation with WDFW (since you claim to have contacted them regarding the topics on this forum, right after claiming to not care about peoples opinions on this forum),feel free to make them aware of how you'd handle things per this conversation.
I dont care about the opinions in this forum. I dont own a ranch, so no need to make them aware.

Not that they aren't already aware, considering not only do they monitor this forum but are have members on it. I dont give 2 poops if they monitor this. What does the game department have to do with my opinions. Its like you think you
are going to scare me or something. ooooowwwwww the game department is reading this. Big deal!
I feel you are trying to make a misplaced point, or you are fishing.  Won't find many bites here
Not fishing, just an opinion

[/quote]

Huh?

You keep contradicting yourself here. 

[Kola16]

So you wouldn't move, and you'd wipe out the pack.   Got it. I said I would do it legally first, but if I felt helpless, I would wipe out the pack and take my chances.

Your message to other ranchers though is that they should just move.  I said they should move IF IT IS THAT BAD AND THEY CANT TAKE THE HEAT. Your trying to take things out of context to win an argument, which you already lost.

In your next conversation with WDFW (since you claim to have contacted them regarding the topics on this forum, right after claiming to not care about peoples opinions on this forum),feel free to make them aware of how you'd handle things per this conversation.
I dont care about the opinions in this forum. I dont own a ranch, so no need to make them aware.

Not that they aren't already aware, considering not only do they monitor this forum but are have members on it. I dont give 2 poops if they monitor this. What does the game department have to do with my opinions. Its like you think you
are going to scare me or something. ooooowwwwww the game department is reading this. Big deal!
I feel you are trying to make a misplaced point, or you are fishing.  Won't find many bites here
Not fishing, just an opinion

You are making no sense at all.

 If you were to wipe out the pack, you would have no chance of getting out of it.

So did you just determine that you won this argument, or was that your mom  To say I am winning, you are losing, is pretty stupid. You clearly stated that you think that the ranchers should move so I don't no why you are upset about that anyway.

If you don't care about the opinions on this forum, then why are you on it?

And what in the world does giving two poops mean? It sounds like something that I would here from my nephews in elementary school.

Nobody on here is trying to scare you. If they were, we would be asking for your address.

[GrainfedMuley]

Wished some of you guys could tune into our local radio, they tell it the way it is, no sugar coating and definitely no liberal spin. 

Are they online? Can we stream there broadcast?

[bearpaw]

Another Confirmed Wolf-Calf Attack In Wedge Has WDFW Planning Bigger Capture Operation, Possibly Killing More Wolves

By Andy Walgamott, on August 16th, 2012

The latest attack was reported Tuesday night; a determination it was "definitely wolf-caused" was made this morning.
 
"The marks on the injured calf were punctures and tears on the hindquarters and groin, consistent with wolf," said Luers.
 
Evidence was reviewed inside and outside the agency, she said.
 
Luers initially disputed an online report by Capital Press that two calves have died this week, but since then the agency has been contacted by the Stevens County Sheriff's Office that they were en route to the scene of a dead calf with vultures circling nearby possibly indicating another downed animal.
 
Not all stock deaths and injuries up here this summer have been caused by wolves. A cougar killed one calf in mid-July and an examination of another last week found "no indications of cause of death ... and it was determined that the calf had not been killed by a predator," according to WDFW.

read more here: http://www.nwsportsmanmag.com/2012/08/16/another-confirmed-wolf-calf-attack-in-wedge-has-wdfw-planning-bigger-capture-operation-possibly-killing-more-wolves/

[bearpaw]

Wished some of you guys could tune into our local radio, they tell it the way it is, no sugar coating and definitely no liberal spin. 

Are they online? Can we stream there broadcast?

They have a website but there does not appear to be any news or reports:  http://www.kcvl.com

[jackmaster]

HUMANURE IS BACK  i love how people come on here and try to hide the fact that they are a tree huggin liberal and they try to hide behind words that they support the killing of wolves but only if all legal avenues were takin...... yeah piss on the fact that IT IS THERE HERITAGE, most of them are passed from generation to generation.........so if your kid gets attacked and killed by a wolf, then you would just come to the fact that its just the nature of the beast......my ass, you would go on a wolf killn rampage.....any self respecting father would..... the scary thing is your from graham and so am i...... and dude why are you baggin on bearpaw, that guy puts more time and effort into wildlife managment than you ever will and often keeps all of us squared the hell away and offers up great info and does alot for youth and the less fortunate......... does your WDFW DO THAT?

[BOWHUNTER45]

Game Hunter...Ranchers should be paid for damages ...The point is the wolf has been extinct for a reason ...they kill sheet and lots of it ...So these greenies come in and say we need wolves and decide to push the issue ...The issue is we will loose live stock and a hell of alot of big game ... Mainly elk ...It has taken over 80 to bring back elk herds where they are now ..Your right saying they are here to stay ...We all know this . But they better prepare themselves for what is about to happen ...Montana , Wyoming and Idaho already have witnessed the out come of wolves ..and for anyone knowing what is in store for us and still wants to have wolves roaming the hills around us are just plain IDIOTS ... Did you watch the wolf show last night on the sportsmen channel ...it was awesome because they plainly stated over and over again how the SPORTSMEN worked and payed to bring our wildlife population where they are today and to bring in wolves and not manage them is not going to happen....just look at the numbers on how fast the population has grown in Idaho ...Once we have them populating in Washington they will be here like coyotes 

[CedarPants]

Looking at both sides is no problem.  Suggesting that other people should move in a situation where you admittedly would take matters into your own hands if it was you makes no sense.  I don't think anyone here is faulting you for offering a different perspective

You actually don't make sense. You asked me if I would move or shoot off the pack. My response was that I would try and handle it legally (meaning through the game department). If I was getting nowhere, then I would take MY chances. I suggested that if the RANCHERS could not get anything done, whether that be legally or non legally, to MOVE if they cant accept the consequences associated with wolves. ONLY IF IT WAS THAT BAD! You eed to go back and read the last 2 pages of the topic. Your trying to twist things and take stuff out of context, to win an argument that you lost 3 pages ago. Now your making yourself look bad. Im trying to help you here.

GH - take a step back and look at my posts and you will see that I'm not trying to win an argument, nor am I taking things out of context.  I'm not even debating you, I'm trying to make sense of your statements.  I get that you are just offering a different perspective, but your posts seem to be contradicting themselves over and over and I'm just trying to make sense of it is all.

A couple pages back you stated you were willing to have a civil discussion on the matter.  THAT is what I am trying to do here, but it keeps getting derailed with your apparent need to continually tell us you think we look bad and with your repeated reminders that you disagree with members on this forum.

Disagreement is a good thing - it's how discussions happen and problems are solved.  Just remember that just as you have your own opinion, some of us have ours.  I certainly don't expect you to accept mine just because I stated it, but you seem to have trouble accepting that people might disagree with you.  I'd be happy to talk differing perspectives all day in a civil manner, but your approach seems to be to want to state your opinion then antagonistically reply when someone offers a varying perspective.

So, short story long - grow up and let's discuss this like adults.

For the record, I don't agree with Washington's wolf plan - but I would absolutely disagree with your decision to take matters into your own hands and wipe out the entire pack. 

[Ridgeratt]

So anyone follow the time line on this from when it was a confirmed pack just a few months ago to this point. That now they have to get busy.
I believe they only estimated perhaps 3 or 4 total and now who knows.
In 2009 I had heard wolves howling in the same area that this is going on and had 5 differant spots one morning at first light. Not sure if they can move that fast but looks like they have a few more than they guessed.
 
Won't be much chance of getting lost up there for the next few weeks, lot's of people in the woods.

[Killmore]

Gamehunter. Don't FORGET who feeds your face!!

[bearpaw]

Are the ranchers assuming it was wolves doing the killing? Did they witness it? Please post pictures of the encounter. Otherwise it is all hunting tales.

I feel bad for the rancher losing cattle, but doesn't that come with the territory? It is like working in a chemical plant and then blamming your employer for getting lung cancer. It comes with the territory. Or being an NFL player taking hits to the head, and now going back and blamming the NFL for health issues. It comes with the territory. I don't think the ranchers deserve any compensation for wildlife damages. The same ranchers that want compensation, won't let hunters hunt on their land. Or they do, in a limited capacity. Many want NOTHING to do with the game department, until THEY are on the losing end of things. Two examples in the Dayton area...

Why the WSDFW feels like they should pay these people damages is redicuious. Ranchers think because they own the land and put cattle on it, that nothing bad should happen at their expense. Welcome to the cycle of life. It comes with the territory...

Every rancher I know realizes that some losses come with raising cattle. Smart operators who have managed to stay in business do so only by cutting down their losses like any other type of businessman in this new era. The problem here is that wolf lovers have successfully lobbied for an unreasonable wolf plan that's designed to put wolves into unfit areas of Washington. I would venture to say I have studied this wolf issue probably more than most people involved in the agencies. I doubt many if any of them have spent more time studying this wolf issue than I have and I can honestly say wolves need plenty of remote area to successfully exist without getting into trouble and causing problems in inhabited areas. When you study all the wolf problems that have occurred in North America it becomes very apparent that wolves could easily fit into certain remote areas but need to be kept away from settled areas. This whole wolf fiasco would be far less polarizing if the agencies weren't pandering to the wolf lovers desire to put wolves in unfit areas.

The wedge (GMU 105) is just like many other NE Washington GMU's, they appear to have remote wolf habitat but there isn't a large enough remote area, the reality is that most of Washington is settled land that is checkerboarded by private land owners many of which are ranching operations and most of the country is grazed. The problem is that there is not enough remote land in many of these areas for wolf packs to not get in trouble. This has been the basis of my argument from the beginning against the Washington Wolf Plan which calls for 15 confirmed breeding pairs throughout Washington.

Wyoming has been working toward the most reasonable wolf plan, a plan that gives both sides of the wolf issue what they desire and it protects the citizens of Wyoming as a whole. In a nutshell, wolves are protected in YNP and surrounding areas. There is a buffer zone around the core wolf area where wolves will classified as game animals and will be hunted part of the year and protected part of the year. The rest of the state, roughly 3/4 of the state is recognized as settled country unfit for wolves and so wolves are classified as unprotected and may be shot on sight. Wyoming's plan designates 10 breeding pairs for the state.

A simple Revised Washington Wolf Plan
Washington should be pursuing the same type of plan as Wyoming. Designate suitable wolf zones, a buffer zone around the core areas where wolves are hunted part of the year, and classify wolves as unprotected in the balance of Washington which is unsuitable as it is settled country. Wolves could survive withot getting into trouble in the Parks and Wilderness areas, wolves would be hunted in the buffer zones during hunting seasons which would encourage wolves to stay in the core wolf areas, and Washington residents would be able to protect themselves and their property when wolves wander into settled lands.

4 Wolf Zones - 10 Breeding Pairs
- Salmo Wilderness & Buffer Zone  (2 BP's)
- North Cascades National Park, Paysayten Wilderness, and Buffer Zones  (3 BP's)
- Mount Rainer National Park, Mount St Helens, Olympic National Park, and Buffer Zones  (3 BP's)
- Wenaha Wilderness and Buffer Zone (1 BP)

*When any zone exceeds their quota by 2 BP's, management action may be taken even if the other zones have not met quota.
**If big game herd populations drop more than 20% in any zone that zone's quota should be reassessed and action taken to prevent further reductions in big game populations. (It should be recognized that significant losses of big game populations will result in less sutable habitat for wolves and other predators.)

If a plan like this was initiated, the wolf lovers would have protected wolves and plenty of wolf viewing areas in every corner of the state, wolves would be encouraged to stay in remote areas, ranchers like the McIrvins could protect their livestock. WDFW who are supposed to be cash strapped would not be driving to McIrvins ranch on a regular basis wasting money. Some of this wasted money could be used to hire several more trappers to document several more of these packs that we all know exist. The plan would be a win/win/win.

WDFW needs to move in this direction with the Washington Wolf Plan, they have the ability to change the plan if needed. If you ask the McIrvin's or many other local residents, I bet they will tell you that something needs done sooner than later.

[RG]

Bearpaw, I agree with you completely.  Wyoming has the most "common sense" plan.  It's interesting though that they had the most trouble getting it approved since it doesn't "pander" to the special interest groups.  They have the most liklihood of success in the long run since it allows for wolves to be part of the ecosystem but also provides a way to prevent or minimize conflicts between them and people in the areas where they just don't have a chance of fitting in.  Idaho and Montana are fighting the problem now and, if you visit any of the small towns, you find angry angry citizens and see photo after photo hanging in every roadside stop of pet dogs, cows, horses, etc. with their guts ripped out laying there dead from wolf kills.  Wolves are large animals that need quite a bit of food.  A coyote can live on a few mice they find in the local park or hay field, bears can live on berries and plants as a supplement to meat.  Not so with wolves.  When they are allowed to hang out near civilization there is no possibility of there not being ongoing, and eventually tragic, conflict between them and humans.  For some reason there is such a political and apparently monetary or other influencial force at work here to cause those who make the decisions to voluntarily turn a blind eye toward common sense that they are willing to alienate and, actually endanger, the citizens of the State of Washington by agreeing to this wolf plan that will place wolves in populated areas.  They then choose to ignore and fail to report or deny the information they receive in some type of misplaced hope that nobody will notice the problems that are happening.

In the 80's I worked for a ranch and guided elk and deer hunters in the Gallatin in Montana.  The Fish Wildlife and Parks dept decided to do an elk study in the area and hired a contract biologist to gather data.  The guy contacted each hunting guide and outfitter in the area as well as the residents who had been born and raised right there, and asked all of us what we thought, what we were observing, and what changes in management made the most sense.  He incorporated that information into his final report.  The guy was an all star in our opinion because he asked the people who really know what is going on for their opinion and was willing to use it for his recommendations.  In other words, he was honest and unbiased.  WDFW should take the same approach.  There's a need for honesty and transparency which will lead to some trust.  There is absolutely no room for politics here when it flies in the face of science and common sense.  The citizens of our state deserve better than what they are getting with this plan.  Once again, they need to go visit Wyoming and listen to the well thought out words of wisdom that went into their plan.