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Author Topic: ElkShape Podcast  (Read 1299 times)

Offline dreamingbig

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ElkShape Podcast
« on: May 29, 2020, 12:59:08 PM »
I like Dan and I like what he is doing.  I don’t know him personally.  The discussion they have on this podcast is interesting.  I have been headed down this road for awhile now.

Go give it a listen.  An interesting discussion on Washington elk.  They brought up some good questions and data.

Unbiased view given Dan doesn’t spend a lot of time on WA elk.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/elkshape/id1315352438?i=1000476158686


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Offline wildskywashington29

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2020, 06:55:48 PM »
Thanks for sharing this. I was about to jump on and share the podcast and get a discussion going but you beat me to it. Was there anything we discussed that you wanted more info on??

There was definitely more I have researched and am interested to hear arguments for and against removing the general season spike hunt. Even if its devils advocate arguments, being able to do research into any topic so I can develop a strong proposal will be helpful.

I wish I was more familiar with the forum and start a poll but I definitely want to know what people are thinking in regards to whether they would rather have an poor OTC hunt every year or get to hunt branch bulls every much more often than is currently an option.

Offline Special T

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2020, 09:07:44 PM »
Tag

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In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

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Offline dilleytech

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2020, 07:37:08 PM »
Good podcast and discussion. Seemed odd to have a discussion about elk numbers without putting in some more info about the natives, cats, bears and wolves.

Offline villajac29

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 06:00:23 AM »
Good podcast and discussion. Seemed odd to have a discussion about elk numbers without putting in some more info about the natives, cats, bears and wolves.

Thanks dilley, as far as natives and predators go I know that the elk have "thrived" (if you believe the WDFW harvest objectives) with both of these factors. For most of the the past 20 years the elk have been at objective. I'm not saying they aren't factors because of course they are and I wish we had better data on native harvest but as far as I know it doesn't exist. As far as predator hunting goes, I'm under the impression that most hunters would like more liberal predator seasons. Bear harvest has been liberalized despite not opening a OTC spring season, but at least we can harvest two at the beginning of August. Cats are an interesting discussion but I'm not prepared to argue on either side, and wolves are whole different thread so I decided to stick with the harvest and management data we have more of a voice in. Those are my reasons but that doesn't mean I'm not for people discussing those issues. Hope that helps...

Offline dreamingbig

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 11:24:51 AM »
No baiting of bears and no hound hunting of bears has really limited the bear harvest.  Which is why you can now shoot two fall bears.

Spring bear season needs 5x the number of tags issued.


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Offline Special T

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2020, 11:47:38 AM »
Good podcast and discussion. Seemed odd to have a discussion about elk numbers without putting in some more info about the natives, cats, bears and wolves.

Thanks dilley, as far as natives and predators go I know that the elk have "thrived" (if you believe the WDFW harvest objectives) with both of these factors. For most of the the past 20 years the elk have been at objective. I'm not saying they aren't factors because of course they are and I wish we had better data on native harvest but as far as I know it doesn't exist. As far as predator hunting goes, I'm under the impression that most hunters would like more liberal predator seasons. Bear harvest has been liberalized despite not opening a OTC spring season, but at least we can harvest two at the beginning of August. Cats are an interesting discussion but I'm not prepared to argue on either side, and wolves are whole different thread so I decided to stick with the harvest and management data we have more of a voice in. Those are my reasons but that doesn't mean I'm not for people discussing those issues. Hope that helps...

I can appreciate your discussion and your desire to make a difference. The simple fact is this. You cannot manage any one species in isolation with out taking into the account of other influences.  The Blues herd numbers are dismal in comparison to the Colokum and Yakima herds. The Blues have had the influence of Wolves and Cats for a longer period and higher densities. The fact is that the combination of sight predators (wolves) and ambush predators (Cougars) puts a major hurt on ungulates. ID has a long running study that shows this, and believe it or not CATS are the biggest killers when combined with wolves... at least until the population crashes.
In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself. 

Confucius

Offline villajac29

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2020, 09:10:15 PM »
Good podcast and discussion. Seemed odd to have a discussion about elk numbers without putting in some more info about the natives, cats, bears and wolves.

Thanks dilley, as far as natives and predators go I know that the elk have "thrived" (if you believe the WDFW harvest objectives) with both of these factors. For most of the the past 20 years the elk have been at objective. I'm not saying they aren't factors because of course they are and I wish we had better data on native harvest but as far as I know it doesn't exist. As far as predator hunting goes, I'm under the impression that most hunters would like more liberal predator seasons. Bear harvest has been liberalized despite not opening a OTC spring season, but at least we can harvest two at the beginning of August. Cats are an interesting discussion but I'm not prepared to argue on either side, and wolves are whole different thread so I decided to stick with the harvest and management data we have more of a voice in. Those are my reasons but that doesn't mean I'm not for people discussing those issues. Hope that helps...

I can appreciate your discussion and your desire to make a difference. The simple fact is this. You cannot manage any one species in isolation with out taking into the account of other influences.  The Blues herd numbers are dismal in comparison to the Colokum and Yakima herds. The Blues have had the influence of Wolves and Cats for a longer period and higher densities. The fact is that the combination of sight predators (wolves) and ambush predators (Cougars) puts a major hurt on ungulates. ID has a long running study that shows this, and believe it or not CATS are the biggest killers when combined with wolves... at least until the population crashes.

Thanks for at least understanding my drive. I'm coming to understand more about this but I'm trying to tackle at least one thing at a time and to be truthful non-native hunters account for the highest harvest in most cases and that is what we can effect most directly. I'm not saying don't push to fix the other issues but we have to take responsibility for what our impact is before you start blaming everything else. Still try to fix everything else but don't ignore what we do and how we can effect things.

Offline villajac29

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2020, 09:11:18 PM »
No baiting of bears and no hound hunting of bears has really limited the bear harvest.  Which is why you can now shoot two fall bears.

Spring bear season needs 5x the number of tags issued.


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I agree completely. I think we should have OTC spring bear seasons across the whole state and will be pushing for that change as well!

Offline dilleytech

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 07:27:18 AM »
No baiting of bears and no hound hunting of bears has really limited the bear harvest.  Which is why you can now shoot two fall bears.

Spring bear season needs 5x the number of tags issued.


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I agree completely. I think we should have OTC spring bear seasons across the whole state and will be pushing for that change as well!

State wide otc or even special draw tags for most units for spring bear seasons seems like a no brainer. Getting baiting back or/and hounds would be huge to our game populations as well. Where I live in southern Washington it’s not uncommon to see more bear and cougar sign then deer or elk. We have had a aug 1, 2 bear limit for a long time and it doesn’t help. We have fish and game killing problem cats and bears left and right due to the over population forcing them into town IMO. I think you could go on for days about the native over harvest or just flat out waste of game but there’s a lot of non native poaching going on as well of course.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 12:25:20 PM »
I wish we had better data on native harvest but as far as I know it doesn't exist.

to be truthful non-native hunters account for the highest harvest in most cases and that is what we can effect most directly.

can you rectify these two opposing statements?


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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2020, 12:28:08 PM »
Good catch kf

Offline villajac29

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2020, 01:55:07 PM »
I wish we had better data on native harvest but as far as I know it doesn't exist.

to be truthful non-native hunters account for the highest harvest in most cases and that is what we can effect most directly.

can you rectify these two opposing statements?

That is a good point! I don't have a great answer to that but this is the best I can give you right now. Since I wrote those I have talked with biologist Jeff Bernatowicz in District 3 and he told me they get very accurate harvest data from the Muckleshoot, and as far as the Yakamas (even without harvest data) he said from enforcement and estimates using aligning data they believe they have a fairly accurate model to account for their harvest as well. I believe he said in normal years non-native harvest is the highest percentage. If that has changed since the population dip I don't know.  Also if you look at calf recruitment and how many elk we (non-native) are harvesting on an annual basis and assume natives harvest more not counting predators/winter kill etc... I would think the elk would be doing even worse than they have been in recent years.

Jeff made it clear that in recent years the Yakamas haven't been open to discussing the issue of non reporting. However, I'm hopeful that this will change, but that is all I can be at the moment. I also want to say we should do our best to open a conversation with the Yakama's. I understand the frustration people feel with seeing others being able to hunt in areas we are familiar with little regulation. However, its likely not gonna change so the best thing we can do is NOT be hostile and antagonistic but to do our best to build a relationship with the legal hunters of the tribe in order to push for things like harvest data. The more accurate this data can be the better we can manage our herd.

Thanks for keeping me honest! I'll do my best to speak more accurately to what I know.

Offline KFhunter

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2020, 04:03:05 PM »
You can't lump all tribes together, some work very close with the state, some do a great job separate from the state but share info, and others tell the state to pound sand and we have zero data.  Each tribe is separate and apart from other tribes, each their own individual nation.

I also reject lumping all geographical areas together, each herd faces unique challenges.

Some herds have higher tribal harvest that exceed non-res hunting, some is the other way around, some elk face death by diease at far higher rates than anything else and others have very high incidence of depredations.

There's no one shoe fits all, I dislike this gross generalities.





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« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 04:08:52 PM by KFhunter »

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Re: ElkShape Podcast
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2020, 07:13:42 PM »
@villajac29   So I was born and raised in Wa ST.   Am I a non-native?
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