The perfect arrow/broadhead combination?

[bow-n-head]

I am considering changing things up a bit. I have not been getting pass through's on many critters at all. I shoot a carbon express maxima hunter 30 and1/2 inches long tipped with 125gr. Thunderhead, last year I tried 100gr, same penetration. I have taken a dozen elk, 2 deer and 7 antelope with my bow. I shoot a 70 lb draw weight and I can count passthroughs on one hand.

[Machias]

Ouch, thanks for your thoughts.  At, I think it's 3 Rivers Archery, they have the broadhead for sale there and the post folks comments about them.  One of the consistent comments about the woodsmen was how well they flew.  However a couple of the knocks against them were how difficult they were to sharpen.  Although quite a few guys didn't think they were very hard to sharpen at all, so who knows!

[Todd_ID]

I know how you feel Machias!  I've been ciphering through this for a long time, and I still have very few answers and lots of questions.  All I know is that the 3 pack that we opened at the shop had 1 that was ok for spinning...just ok.  The other 2 needed an o-ring or something to get them to spin straight on any arrow.  If they don't spin well, then they don't fly well; at least that's been my observation over the years.  I don't doubt that you could get the Woodsman to spin and fly very well, though.

[Todd_ID]

I told you these Grizzly broadheads are big!  I glued one to an adapter to see how they'd work out.  It seems to be just fine.  It spins very close to perfect and flys well at 40 yards. 

Here's a picture to show the relative sizes in broadheads; my floor is 4" bamboo boards.

From Left to Right: 290 Grain Grizzly (1-3/16" cut), 125 grain Magnus Snuffer SS (1-1/16"), Rocket Ultimate Steel 100 grain (7/8"), Slick Trick 85 grain standard (1").

[Intruder]

So, other than some "questions" on the potential lack of blood trail what are some of the cons that others bring up to going this route?  I'm guessing maybe loss of speed and reduction in range....

[Todd_ID]

Loss of speed and pin gaps are the main reasons brought up I'd guess.  I'd counter with the fact that I can set my pins to match whatever range I decide and always use my rangefinder on anything over 40 yards.  Loss of speed is not a consideration for me when I look at the gains in momentum that come from using the heavy arrows.  Downrange momentum is much greater with the heavy arrow also, because the mass retains the velocity much better.  Slow arrows are much better for penetration too, because friction (what stops an arrow) doesn't go up linearly, it's exponential.  So double the speed is quadruple the friction.

[Intruder]

Loss of speed and pin gaps are the main reasons brought up I'd guess.  I'd counter with the fact that I can set my pins to match whatever range I decide and always use my rangefinder on anything over 40 yards.  Loss of speed is not a consideration for me when I look at the gains in momentum that come from using the heavy arrows.  Downrange momentum is much greater with the heavy arrow also, because the mass retains the velocity much better.  Slow arrows are much better for penetration too, because friction (what stops an arrow) doesn't go up linearly, it's exponential.  So double the speed is quadruple the friction.

Makes sense.... I was w/ ya up to the point about friction.  How does that work... is that a function of the spin or sumthin?  Not wrappin my mind around that.

[Todd_ID]

Another bonus of using the heavy broadheads is that your FOC goes way up.  Having the balance point farther away from the fletching means that your fletching is much more able to steer your arrow.  You can use smaller fletching or enjoy the benefit of much more controlled arrow flight.  I shoot FOB's, so I generally don't have any problems getting broadheads to fly well.  This 22% FOC that I have with the heavy broadhead gives the FOB that much more ability to control the arrow.

High FOC balance allows the better penetration because the broadhead is pulling the arrow through the animal instead of the weight of the shaft trying to push it through.  With normal FOC arrows as the broadhead hits the animal the arrow starts pushing and bends upon impact.  This bending/oscillating at impact creates a great deal of friction from the shaft as it is trying to work its way through the flesh; this is greatly reduced with the high FOC arrow.

[Todd_ID]

Makes sense.... I was w/ ya up to the point about friction.  How does that work... is that a function of the spin or sumthin?  Not wrappin my mind around that.

Friction is the force that opposes the momentum force of the arrow when it hits either a target or an animal.  This opposing force (friction) is what slows, and ultimately stops an arrow.  The faster something is flying, the greater the friction buildup is.  Think of putting your hand out the window of the car going 20 mph; there's relatively little friction (wind resistance).  Now speed up to 40 mph; the amount of wind resistance didn't double; it quadrupled, making it much harder to hold your hand out.  The same thing happens when an arrow is stopped.  A slow arrow encounters less friction than a fast arrow in the same target.  Traditional guys have know this for years; their arrows out penetrate targets when they're shooting next to their buddies with compounds.

I've seen this with the two arrows I put on the first post.  The slow, heavy arrow penetrated through the target to bury in about 2" before the FOB.  The lighter, faster arrow didn't come out the back side of the target.

[bucklucky]

But the same weight arrow that is faster will out penetrate wont it?? There is more than just friction working against you and for you in this equation. A faster arrow of the same weight will carry more power longer than the same arrow that is slower. Am I thinking right? The heavier arrow just holds its momentum longer than a light arrow?? Im trying to wrap my brain around that as well 

[Intruder]

But the same weight arrow that is faster will out penetrate wont it?? There is more than just friction working against you and for you in this equation. A faster arrow of the same weight will carry more power longer than the same arrow that is slower. Am I thinking right? The heavier arrow just holds its momentum longer than a light arrow?? Im trying to wrap my brain around that as well 

Without knowing all the ins and outs this makes sense to me.  It's kinda like talking about energy in bullets.  It doesn't mean a whole lot unless you're talking about bullets that don't vary too much in weight.  Momentum is a much better objective measure of penetration ability than energy. 

I'm guessing that friction as a result of speed, while a factor, doesn't mean as much as some of the other measures when trying to determine penetration and or killing capacity.  Seems like there are other forces at work that would contribute or diminish friction.... broadhead sharpness, broadhead shape, arrow diameter, arrow slickness, fletchings, etc.  All of these would effect friction upon impact in some way regardless of speed.     

[Ray]

High FOC balance allows the better penetration because the broadhead is pulling the arrow through the animal instead of the weight of the shaft trying to push it through.  With normal FOC arrows as the broadhead hits the animal the arrow starts pushing and bends upon impact.  This bending/oscillating at impact creates a great deal of friction from the shaft as it is trying to work its way through the flesh; this is greatly reduced with the high FOC arrow.

The science behind it has a little bit more. The example I read said something to the effect of - the arrow sort of bends or crumples when it hits the target. Having the weight up front reduces the drag by decreasing the amount of bending on the arrow as it strikes , enters and passes into or through the target.

A faster arrow is not necessarily better according to the studies. I have no PHD and I just shoot arrows.  However the study seems to make sense.

[Intruder]

I have no PHD and I just shoot arrows. 

No kiddin... at some point ya can't get too wrapped up in the nitty gritty.  I've always found that if you poke holes in vital organs, things die 

Fun discussin it all though...

[Todd_ID]

You're right to assume that the same weight arrow pushed at a faster speed will penetrate better.  However, that isn't possible without changing bows to get Wapiti's 225# draw weight.  One bow only puts so much energy into an arrow regardless of the weight.  That same bow will push 2 arrows with different weights at different speeds.  The faster one encounters more friction than the slower one.  You're also right to assume that it's a small difference because we are not talking about doubling the speed but just 20% differences.

Next, you're right in assuming that a heavier mass will retain more of it's energy down range.  Like Ray's reloading example, only that with bullets you can put more powder in to change the force pushing the bullet.  With a bow you can only get out of it what you put in (the area under the draw force curve minus efficiency losses).  You'll notice that the lighter arrow had 78 ft-lbs of KE, and the heavier arrow had 81 ft-lbs.  I've seen this happen many times with different weight arrows.  The bow is able to put a bit more energy into a heavier arrow, thereby eeking out a little bit more efficiency from the bow.

All things being said, I'd much rather hit an elk with a broadhead designed for penetration with a high FOC and 81 ft-lbs than 78 ft-lbs and a questionable design.

[bucklucky]

Makes sence. I wasnt sure if the same arrow because it is going faster would have more friction causing it not to penetrate as well on the heavy set up.

Now go spend the money and upgrade your bow ang gain 20-30 fps and see how your numbers come out.  OK probably not worth the $800.00 for a new bow 

Great info !