I like big guns...and I cannot lie

[luvmystang67]

Okay, so here's something I've been thinking about lately, and there's no real reason, just theoretical conversation.  The crux of my question is: If I shoot the same grain bullet through a 338 Lapua versus a 375 H&H, and it hits at the same velocity, am I going to see a difference in "killing power" on an animal?

I've got a .375H&H, which is fun.  I can shoot a 270 grain bullet at ~2730 fps and get about .30-06 trajectory with one heavy bullet.  I've been working on loads for this gun, and its pretty fun.  If I put a 300 grain bullet in there, we're looking at more like 2500 fps.  I'd like to feel like I could kill an elk at 500 yards with it, mostly because if I can't do that, I'll always take my 300WM instead.  We can beat back and forth whether I should do this, but I don't really care too much about your opinion on that front.

Now, I've always wanted a big 338 for longer range shooting.  For some reason, not necessarily logical, since I first read about 338 Lapua, I've wanted one.  So, when I start looking at 338 rounds for a 338 lapua, I see what I can launch the same weight projectile as my 375 H&H, just as fast, with better downrange ballistics.

If I hit, say an elk, or a moose, or heck, a grizz at say 200 yards or even 300 or 400 yards with the same weight and same speed 338LM vs the 375H&H will there be any difference?  Is there a scenario where the 375 is better, beyond 100 yards?  I know this is a debate with little proof, but I'm curious to hear opinions.  The sectional density is better on the Lapua, but certainly a bigger hole makes some statement.

[callturner]

Well you're gonna get a lot of answers here probably. I've shot A338 win for about 40 years. I built a custom 338 lapua and it was a fine rifle I started out with a stiller action, A Ron Smith barrel, gain twist of course. I believe it was 11 to 22 custom built for the bullet that I like to shoot which was a 250 grain Sierra game king. I had it all custom and laid into a Tom Manners stock. I ended up selling it to put a roof on my house after I became disabled or so they say I had terminal cancer that turned out not to be terminal. Do I miss it not really. It was a fun toy but I still have two 338 win mags and they do everything I need them to.

[Karl Blanchard]

The only thing that matters in terms of bullet performance is impact velocity. Full stop. If I was a betting man I'd wager that there is no measurable difference between the same bullet and weight in 338 vs 375. Energy has no bearing on bullet expansion, only velocity. So the 270gr bullet going faster out of the 338 going 200fps faster is going to have a higher impact velocity which will upset the bullet more "violently" creating a larger wound channel.

[Karl Blanchard]

The 375 sure is fun to shoot though

[Taco280AI]

Really been thinking about the 338 RPM. Would be nice for AK moose next year, or Idaho elk.

[jrebel]

I'm not sure your getting the same velocities out of those two cartridges if you are maximizing the load.  I'm getting over 200 fps faster out of my 338 lapua with a 260 grain bullet.  That said, we are talking nominal differences when your are talking that heavy of a bullet.  I would look at impact velocities at range and compare the two to see which one has more horsepower at the range you want to effectively kill at.  I can tell you my lapua will kill out to 850 yards based on the speed my bullet needs to perform.   I prefer to not hunt much beyond 600 and it still has 2121 fps and 2598 ft lbs of energy. 

Bullets do make a difference....My bullet needs 1800 fps to function reliably.  The faster it is traveling on impact will make for a more violent wound channel.  Below 1800 fps...I'm gambling on whether it performs like designed.  Point being....look at your bullet and see if it will work at the desired range with velocities it is designed to function within.   

[Rob]

All things equal on the bullet other than diameter, sectional density comes into play.

E.g. if you have two rods the same weight they impact a target at the same speed, and the only difference between them is the diameter (one skinnier that the other), the skinnier one will penetrate deeper.  The reduced surface area can penetrate the target easier, but even more important is that the skinnier rod has more weight behind it in terms of lbs per square inch.

If that makes any sense

[JimmyHoffa]

Once above somewhere around .35 cal, the bullet diameter is such that the size of the wound channel is significant from the bullet alone, and not due to expansion from being driven at high velocity.

[BULLBLASTER]

There is no question that 338 equal bullet weight/model will be ballistically superior to 375. The bc proves that. The 338 will keep the high impact velocity much further.

Any difference in “killing power” is the result of bullet construction. Something like a 300 berger will do a lot more damage and tissue devastation than something like a 300 grain partition or the like.

For me, shootability would 100% lean toward the 375. The slower recoil impulse is not near as abusive as a 338 lapua (not sure the science there)

All that said, i wont ever give up my H&H.

[bearpaw]

I'm guessing the 338 Lapua will do better on North American game at longer range due to the higher B.C.

Unless you have a brake on the .338 it will recoil noticeably more than the 375. I've done a fair amount of shooting with a 375 and the recoil was surprisingly manageable. I have a 338/378 (similar to a 338 Lapua) and without the brake it has a lot more recoil than the 375's I've shot, but with the screw on brake its about like a 243 (but annoyingly loud).

[Cougartail]

I thought the thread was about "big" rifles?

Big bores start at .400 inches.   

[Rob]

I thought the thread was about "big" rifles?

Big bores start at .400 inches.   

40?   What, are you from Washington State?  458 is the starting point for big-bore.  (the OP said big guns though, not big bore)

[Rob]

I partially retract...  416 qualifies as big bore too.

[luvmystang67]

This is some good banter. 

I'm mostly curious... say you're hunting cape buffalo, and you show up with a 338 shooting 300 grain bullets, and a 375 shooting 300 grain bullets.  Is your PH going to have a preference or just say "meh, same same, use whichever you'd like"?

[Rob]

Likely he will say 375 is the minimum legal caliber to take Cape Buff with!

Legality aside, A good PH would probably say he is most comfortable with you shooting the one you are able to shoot the best.

They love the 375 HH in Africa though.  Such a versatile cartridge.   Solids are pretty popular in Africa and there are lots of great options in 375.

I used a 338 WM with I want to say 250 grain Barnes on my first trip.  All plains game and it worked very well. 

[birddogdad]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/if-a-rifle-could-talk-finn-aagaard-s-375/

when i was a young man in the 70's, my grandpa would read to me about this man and his 375... later in my life, grandpa got me one and to this day, its a very fun gun to run and load! Its my elk slayer!

[Mtnwalker]

Inside 400 yards the difference is probably negligible on game. 500 and beyond the 338 would start to run away and by the time you got past 700 it's probably not even comparable.

But they're 2 very different cartridges designed to do 2 very different things. Kinda like comparing a bulldozer to a Ford Raptor.

IMO the 338 is going to be way more shootable at distance due to trajectory and wind deflection. That being said there's no way I'd be lugging a 338LM around the woods unless I planned on killing elk way beyond a grand. Even then there's other cartridges I'd personally go with.  If you're talking about an every day elk rifle that you can stretch out to 500 on occasion, I'd stick with the 375 

[Bob33]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/if-a-rifle-could-talk-finn-aagaard-s-375/

when i was a young man in the 70's, my grandpa would read to me about this man and his 375... later in my life, grandpa got me one and to this day, its a very fun gun to run and load! Its my elk slayer!

That's a fascinating article. I did find it interesting that he recorded having lost or wounded seven buffalo with his 375.

[Cougartail]

Back in the day I read many an article written by and later, about Finn. I only carry my 375 around bear infested areas in Alaska anymore. I did take it elk hunting once and almost shot a spike. Problem was the cow standing behind him. They both would have been dead had I shot.

[Come Get Some]

I would definately shhot the 338-378 before i would entertain the .375. BC is superior ,trajectory is superior and retained kenetic energy is superior down range. It performs well beyond 1000 yds. The berger elite bullets have a great BC but come apart at long range and dont penetrate as well as the OTM's do. Same BC better performance upon impact. Tested on elk at 1400 yds. This is not speculation. The nosler  accubond stays together well also. 338,-378 is definately a big gun. When on the shooting bench when i torch it off. Both bences on either side of me empty.

[luvmystang67]

I want to rephrase my question a little.

Let’s say there are no laws in Africa, you can use whichever gun you wish.

Now let’s say you shoot a 270 grain bullet out of a 375 or a 270 grain from a 338 at 100 yards. Does one kill the buffalo better? Assume same bullet construction and velocity. Only difference is the diameter.

Are these projectiles performing with the same killing power? If one is better in my scenario, why?


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[Rob]

If all other variables are equal other than diameter (Bullet construction, weight, velocity, etc), then I think the only variable left is sectional density.  The 338 would penetrate better.

Name of the game with Cape Buff is penetration thru heavy bones and muscle.

[bearpaw]

I want to rephrase my question a little.

Let’s say there are no laws in Africa, you can use whichever gun you wish.

Now let’s say you shoot a 270 grain bullet out of a 375 or a 270 grain from a 338 at 100 yards. Does one kill the buffalo better? Assume same bullet construction and velocity. Only difference is the diameter.

Are these projectiles performing with the same killing power? If one is better in my scenario, why?


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IMO- I agree with Rob on the sectional density, also speed can make a difference, and bore size can make a difference, with the same weight bullets at close range the 375 might be more effective due to bore diameter, speed isn't all that different at close range with 275 (heavy for a 338) gr bullets, but at long range the 338 will have the advantage due to SD.

[havershap]

I love my .375.  I've only shot a .338 once.
At 500 yards, the difference in trajectory won't matter.  A 270 grain, .375 Speer has a BC of .429.  With a muzzle velocity of 2700 ft/sec and a 200 yard zero, it will drop 51.4 inches at 500 yards (per Speer reloading manual).  Raise the BC to .50 and keep everything else the same and the drop at 500 yards decreases to 48.2 inches.  Not enough to matter in terms of hitting your target.
At 500 yards, the .375 bullet will be traveling at 1747 ft/sec and the .338 (with BC .5) will be traveling at 1865.  I doubt the animal will know the difference.
If there is a difference, I think it is most likely to be in accuracy.  Most people will shoot the .375 more accurately due to its milder felt recoil.  A bullet hitting the boiler room at 1747 ft/sec will be much more effective than a bullet hitting the guts at 1865 ft/sec.

The above notwithstanding, your post reads like you just want to experiment with the .338 for the fun of it.  So go for it.  But my I would look at a lighter bullet in order to get a higher velocity.  You'll lose some BC but if you can come up with a combination of MV and BC that yields a significantly flatter trajectory, I think that would be the biggest advantage of the .338.

[luvmystang67]

Thanks @havershap

You’re getting closer to my question.

I’ve wanted a .375 H&H since I was 12, and now that I have one and am loading for it, I look at the ballistic charts and think “Why would anyone prefer a 375 to a big 338? They often take the same weight bullets, and it appears that everything bigger than a 338WM meets or exceeds performance of the .375.”

Just trying to mentally justify what benefits I get out of my .375 aside from nostalgia, Africa minimums, and a place in history.


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[havershap]

I'm like you.  I'd wanted a 375 for years because it's such a classic caliber, even though I have no practical need for one since the biggest animals I hunt are elk.  I finally bought one a few years ago and I'm very happy with it.  With 250 grain Sierra bullets, I get sub MOA accuracy and a trajectory similar to my .30-06.  I shot an elk with it a few years ago, a quartering away shot at about 350 yards.  The bullet entered behind the last rib and the fragments exited through the chest.  Not many rounds would go through an elk the long way.

The above notwithstanding, I'm looking at experimenting with 270 grain Speer bullets.  They have a much higher ballistic coefficient than the Sierras and are only a little more than half the cost.  Your original post stated that you're getting a velocity around 2700 ft/sec with 270 grain bullets from your 375.  What powder are you using, and how much?

[luvmystang67]

I'm like you.  I'd wanted a 375 for years because it's such a classic caliber, even though I have no practical need for one since the biggest animals I hunt are elk.  I finally bought one a few years ago and I'm very happy with it.  With 250 grain Sierra bullets, I get sub MOA accuracy and a trajectory similar to my .30-06.  I shot an elk with it a few years ago, a quartering away shot at about 350 yards.  The bullet entered behind the last rib and the fragments exited through the chest.  Not many rounds would go through an elk the long way.

The above notwithstanding, I'm looking at experimenting with 270 grain Speer bullets.  They have a much higher ballistic coefficient than the Sierras and are only a little more than half the cost.  Your original post stated that you're getting a velocity around 2700 ft/sec with 270 grain bullets from your 375.  What powder are you using, and how much?

I've currently done most of my load development with Barnes 270g TSX FB and so far (in absence of any of the Reloader powders availability) I've had the best luck with 74 g of Varget.  My best groups are ~1", going 2725 FPS.  At 20 and 30 thousands off the lands I see 50 fps more, but it messed with my accuracy and required single round feed.  Have been messing around a little with CFE223, H4350 as well as some 300 gr accubonds and some 270 grain A Frames.  I haven't messed around as much with these, but they seemed to be less promising that the Varget and Barnes.

[havershap]

Thanks.  I'm not looking at Barnes bullets and the best I've come up, on paper at least, is H4350.

Back to the topic of 375 vs 338:

When you consider cape buffalo instead of elk, other factors dominate.  You don't shoot buffalo, or any dangerous game, at 500 yards.  You shoot at 100 yards or less.  So BC doesn't matter and trajectory doesn't matter.  I would focus on 300 grain bullets.  According to the Hodgdon on-line reloading data, you can expect to get a velocity of about 2800 ft/sec from the .338 versus about 2550 from the 375.  A lot of history has demonstrated that the 375 will do the job but the 338 seem like it will hit significantly harder.  But I still think the most important consideration is going to be how well you shoot it.

[BULLBLASTER]

Comparing a 375 HH to a 338 lapua is like comparing a john deer tractor to a corvette. 

[luvmystang67]

Comparing a 375 HH to a 338 lapua is like comparing a john deer tractor to a corvette. 

I guess my point is, I can't think of a single thing the .375 H&H is then better than the .338 (lapua or larger) at, except maybe carrying a 350 grain bullet.  Looking for someone to say "WRONG", but nobody does.

There are things that a tractor is better than a corvette at and vice versa.

[b23]

Comparing a 375 HH to a 338 lapua is like comparing a john deer tractor to a corvette. 

Ha!  That's fricken funny!! 

[BULLBLASTER]

Comparing a 375 HH to a 338 lapua is like comparing a john deer tractor to a corvette. 

I guess my point is, I can't think of a single thing the .375 H&H is then better than the .338 (lapua or larger) at, except maybe carrying a 350 grain bullet.  Looking for someone to say "WRONG", but nobody does.

There are things that a tractor is better than a corvette at and vice versa.

not many sporter weight 338 lapuas out there. Certainly not as many as 375. Also no 338 lapua that has a mag capacity of 4 that fit in floorplate bottom metal.

To say it shorter they are 2 different beasts meant to complete 2 different tasks.

And again, a 375 is plenty shootable without a muzzle device. A lapua recoils drastically harder.
Dont confuse this with me saying that the HH is “better” than the lapua. Because for some tasks it is not. But if you were to hand me a win model 70 in 375 hh and any lapua and say “choose one and go hunt that brushy timber patch” there is zero chance i am taking the lapua. Had you said “take one and shoot an elk at 800 yards” zero chance i take the HH.

[BULLBLASTER]

But i am a fan of 375 HH and think 338 lapuas are over rated. 

[Cougartail]

But i am a fan of 375 HH and think 338 lapuas are over rated. 

I agree! The 338 Lapuas seem like the caliber of people who have shortcomings in other areas.

[pickardjw]

I want to rephrase my question a little.

Let’s say there are no laws in Africa, you can use whichever gun you wish.

Now let’s say you shoot a 270 grain bullet out of a 375 or a 270 grain from a 338 at 100 yards. Does one kill the buffalo better? Assume same bullet construction and velocity. Only difference is the diameter.

Are these projectiles performing with the same killing power? If one is better in my scenario, why?


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The podcast below and sources cited within might help answer your question. Essentially, there's a point of diminishing returns with wound channel size after about 2.5". So if both bullets produce a would channel of at least that size, both are equally effective and neither "kills better".

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ArrqfmzVT9IUkEHCbtGdP?si=c13ed667236543ff

[Okanagan]

A single factor not explicitly addressed in this thread is the difference in length of bullets of the same weight but different diameters.  Assuming the same or similar overall shapes and material, the smaller diameter bullet has to be longer to weigh the same as a larger diameter bullet.  This is part of the BC calculation.  Same weight in bigger diameter equals a shorter length bullet.

This length of the bullet mass behind the frontal area influences terminal performance, especially depth of penetration, though obviously impact velocity and any differences in hardness/softness bullet construction are also major factors.

All else being equal, the smaller diameter bullet is longer.  Factor that as you will.

[luvmystang67]

A single factor not explicitly addressed in this thread is the difference in length of bullets of the same weight but different diameters.  Assuming the same or similar overall shapes and material, the smaller diameter bullet has to be longer to weigh the same as a larger diameter bullet.  This is part of the BC calculation.  Same weight in bigger diameter equals a shorter length bullet.

This length of the bullet mass behind the frontal area influences terminal performance, especially depth of penetration, though obviously impact velocity and any differences in hardness/softness bullet construction are also major factors.

All else being equal, the smaller diameter bullet is longer.  Factor that as you will.

I guess this is the crux of the question.  If I'm using the exact same bullet construction, but one is a 270 grain 338 (long, skinny) and one is a 270 grain 375 (short and fat)... or heck, even a 300 grain bullet with the same features... is there ANY reason to preference the 375 over the 338.  The only compelling argument I've heard so far is on recoil.  Otherwise, the 338 is AT LEAST the same, but likely better. 

Basically, I was trying to ask... does a fatter bullet get you anything over a skinnier one, all else equal.  I kind of figured someone would chime in and talk about being hit by a cannonball versus an all lead pencil.  I haven't seen anyone making that argument.  So the only real argument so far is recoil, and that is pretty easily mitigated with a break.

You are right though, I just can find a good argument for "larger diameter is better" but plenty for "smaller diameter is better".  Heck, by this logic if we could fit a 270 grain bullet into a 6.5 at 2700 fps, it'd be the king of killers, with an SD of 2!

[Jason]

A single factor not explicitly addressed in this thread is the difference in length of bullets of the same weight but different diameters.  Assuming the same or similar overall shapes and material, the smaller diameter bullet has to be longer to weigh the same as a larger diameter bullet.  This is part of the BC calculation.  Same weight in bigger diameter equals a shorter length bullet.

This length of the bullet mass behind the frontal area influences terminal performance, especially depth of penetration, though obviously impact velocity and any differences in hardness/softness bullet construction are also major factors.

All else being equal, the smaller diameter bullet is longer.  Factor that as you will.

I guess this is the crux of the question.  If I'm using the exact same bullet construction, but one is a 270 grain 338 (long, skinny) and one is a 270 grain 375 (short and fat)... or heck, even a 300 grain bullet with the same features... is there ANY reason to preference the 375 over the 338.  The only compelling argument I've heard so far is on recoil.  Otherwise, the 338 is AT LEAST the same, but likely better. 

Basically, I was trying to ask... does a fatter bullet get you anything over a skinnier one, all else equal.  I kind of figured someone would chime in and talk about being hit by a cannonball versus an all lead pencil.  I haven't seen anyone making that argument.  So the only real argument so far is recoil, and that is pretty easily mitigated with a break.

You are right though, I just can find a good argument for "larger diameter is better" but plenty for "smaller diameter is better".  Heck, by this logic if we could fit a 270 grain bullet into a 6.5 at 2700 fps, it'd be the king of killers, with an SD of 2!

My assumption is you will get a larger wound channel with the 375 than the 338.

[Karl Blanchard]

Not necessarily.  Bore diameter does not correlate to size of wound channel. Bullet construction and impact velocity are the main factors in permanent wound channel size.

[BULLBLASTER]

Bullet diameter has such a small impact on terminal ballistics that it is completely overshadowed by bullet construction. It just doesnt impact tissue damage to a noticeable level. .030 of bullet diameter would not be noticeable for given bullet construction. 
Tissue damage is a product of bullet construction and speed. Speed meaning adequate speed for bullet upset.

[LDennis24]

Not necessarily.  Bore diameter does not correlate to size of wound channel. Bullet construction and impact velocity are the main factors in permanent wound channel size.

 

Bullet shape will change that as well

[jrebel]

Other than WANTING a big bore....there is very little need for most folks to own one.  You can push really good bullets faster than ever now days and terminal performance is outstanding.  Take a 300 wm for example and push a 154 grain monolithic bullet at upwards of 3600-3700 fps and it will be enough to kill anything in North America.  The terminal performance of FAST and WELL CONSTRUCTED bullets creates a bubble effect, that disrupts vasculature like never seen before.  Big  heavy slow moving bullets penetrate well but don't have the same bubble effect in most cases.  Both will kill....but to your question, terminal performance is not decided by diameter near as much as it is by speed and bullet construction....as stated many times above. 


All that being said, I love big bore rifles.  I know.....I'm compensating for something because I love the .338 lapua.  The difference with me is I also love the new bullets that can pushed hard.  I'm not buying the .338 lapua to push 300 gain bullets at 2700 fps.  I'm buying it to push 175-260 grain bullets at well over 3000 fps.  Point being....if I had a 375, I would be looking to load 160-250 grain bullet to push is hard and fast with the intent of getting a flat shooting large bore.  It's a change in thought process that a lot of people are having a hard time with...including myself...but once you figure it out, it is awesome.   

 

[bearpaw]

Other than WANTING a big bore....there is very little need for most folks to own one.  You can push really good bullets faster than ever now days and terminal performance is outstanding.  Take a 300 wm for example and push a 154 grain monolithic bullet at upwards of 3600-3700 fps and it will be enough to kill anything in North America.  The terminal performance of FAST and WELL CONSTRUCTED bullets creates a bubble effect, that disrupts vasculature like never seen before.  Big  heavy slow moving bullets penetrate well but don't have the same bubble effect in most cases.  Both will kill....but to your question, terminal performance is not decided by diameter near as much as it is by speed and bullet construction....as stated many times above. 


All that being said, I love big bore rifles.  I know.....I'm compensating for something because I love the .338 lapua.  The difference with me is I also love the new bullets that can pushed hard.  I'm not buying the .338 lapua to push 300 gain bullets at 2700 fps.  I'm buying it to push 175-260 grain bullets at well over 3000 fps.  Point being....if I had a 375, I would be looking to load 160-250 grain bullet to push is hard and fast with the intent of getting a flat shooting large bore.  It's a change in thought process that a lot of people are having a hard time with...including myself...but once you figure it out, it is awesome.   

I use the same though process, I like fast flat shooting guns, my 340 Wtby pushes a 160 gr TTSX about 3500 fps which is very flat shooting out to 500. I think I could get 3600-3700 with the 338/378 but haven't looked into it yet. On the 338/378 I might have to step up to the next weight bullet to stabilize them, not sure until I try the 160's in it.

I get some hunters who just don't have good shooting rifles, we end up loaning guns quite often. Some hunters are afraid of the recoil in larger capacity cartridges so that is anther good reason to use lighter quality bullets. I have began trying the same with smaller standard calibers too just to make them more enjoyable for women and kids to shoot.

I loaded some 150 Barnes in 30/06 and they shoot nearly as fast as a 300 magnum with a 180. I bought some 110 and 130 TTSX to try reloading this summer in the 308 and 30/06. If they are accurate, I will be able to hand a hunter a 308 that will shoot 3200ish muzzle velocity and be near laser flat out to 300 yards, as far as I want most average hunters shooting.



Getting back to the OP, the 375 is fun to shoot and deadly, I've killed numerous species including water buffalo with the 375 and some shots on large species of deer at fairly long range. But as others have said, in long range hunting I would prefer 338 caliber cartridges. Also as has been mentioned, I agree that a 338 shooting lighter than 270 gr bullets will be very flat with more speed and likely a larger wound channel. (if using Barnes that wound channel will be all the way through the animal)

[kentrek]

Speed, bullet construction, ballistics, science, blah blah blah...you won't find a cooler set up then a 375 and decent speed bullet

But it is a novelty and not a necessity

[LDennis24]

What about a nitro express!? .400-.700 or something? Those old accurate reloading videos of the Saudi guys shooting that gun were hilarious!

[carpsniperg2]

Think that was the video of the 577 T. rex.

I run a 458 Lott and it’s not a harsh recoil but a solid shove.