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Author Topic: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?  (Read 23084 times)

Offline Stilly bay

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 10:07:39 PM »
I was checking out the new 101's and they are a very solid, somewhat lively birdgun, and at a really good price point. I believe I heard something about the newer ones being made in belgium (if that matters to you) where the older ones were made in japan at miroku... not that theres any thing wrong with a miroku gun, im just saying.
"Love the dogs before loving the hunt; love the hunt for the dogs." - Ben O. Williams

“It is easy to forget that in the main we die only seven times more slowly than our dogs.”
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Offline Miles

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2011, 10:11:21 PM »
I have not seen or picked up a new one.  I'm talking strictly about the older ones. 

I'm not sure if they changed anything with the newer ones, but the older model 101's are very nice handling guns.  I'm keeping an open spot in the safe for another one...

Offline Wacenturion

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2011, 10:14:26 PM »
How does a 28 compare to a 20???

A month ago, I would not have considered anything but a 12... but some recent discussions with friends have prompted me... as for the 12... at my age, strength...etc... I dont mind the 8 pound gun and the recoil is not felt... shells are cheaper too and frankly, cmon...range and effectiveness is going to be at least as good if not better than any other gauge...

But... being an open minded sort, I am all ears... 20 is sounding better all the time... 28????


Here's a couple interesting reads on 28's. 

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/longgun_reviews_28gauge_073106/



Also.............From the Firing Line.......someone's opinion

Why a 28 gauge?
My buddy Fjolnirsson asked.

Yes I know we have threads on the 28 gauge, then again, can one really have too many threads on the 28 gauge? NO

-As most know the Game of Skeet there are four gauges allowed and used; 12, 20, 28 gauge and the .410. Many Folks, such as myself shot all 4 events.

I might as well again mention Bob Brister's book - Shotgunning : The Art & Science Yes it is an older publication, still chocked full of most questions we see on gun forums today. Try www.abebooks.com

-Shotguns really are Art & Science, and truism is "The .28 gauge is better than it is supposed to be".

There exists a wonderful and unique ratio of the 28 ga and its 3/4 oz payload to its .540 bore. One can look at any Tote Board at any Skeet Range and the highest scores are in 28 gauge.

The 28 gauge "hits harder" simply because of this unique ratio of payload to bore, the shot string is short.

Allow me to clarify for newer folks. Shotgun pellets do not all arrive at the same time to a target. Take a garden hose with a trigger sprayer and "shoot a shot of water". Notice how the water does not all arrive at the target at the same time? Same principle applies to pellet loadings from a shotgun.

Flying targets , be they clays or birds can literally "fly thru" and load of pellets, in part due to "long shot stringing". There are other factors such as pattern density and all, I will get into that aspect.

The gist is - with a long shot string, by the time all the shot finally arrives, a bird can be missed.

- There is a Rule of 96, basic premise is the Weight of Gun in ounces to weight of payload in ounces and the RECOIL.

96 ounces equal 6 pounds. So the English came up with a 6 pound gun shooting a 1 oz load was "correct and mangagable". Actually the 11/16 oz load used in 12 bore was "proper". This is a great load, and we Silly Americans are just now realizing how good this load is - even though we use a 7/8 oz load in 12 ga. 11/16 - 7/8 real darn close. The English felt a 1 1/8 oz load was "heavy" and 1 1/4 oz loading was "magnum".

- 28 gauge- Skeet shooters in competition shoot 4 boxes of 25 shells, 100 rds in each event. Less Recoil for 100 rds, with a short string, heavy hitting payload - translates into higher scores.
Also translates into building confidence, self esteem and this enables a shooter to focus on correct basic fundamentals, focus on target and the cycle repeats.

Getting whacked with a ill fitting gun , with heavy payloads with improper mounting gun to face is going to cause flinching, getting fatigue, missing targets, getting frustrated, missing more targets...
We will speak of this again later.

Hence one the reason Competition guns in 12 ga , especially tube sets, weigh ~ 8#s. Rule of 96.

[8* 16ozs = 128...well you can figure the target load to gun weight and how this works for less felt recoil, multiplied X 100 rds per event ,and if shooting all 4 events plus any special event such as doubles or pump gun events]

- Hunting where there is a lot of walking and less shooting, the 28 ga is easy to tote, and still / most often the most effective Gauge to use for quail and other game birds. Small game such as rabbit and squirrel too.

Toting a 7.5# gun gets mighty heavy , especially for a new shooter, a lady, a kid, elderly person...
Again I will touch on this more later.

- Dove hunting.
Well some of you folks not only believe - also support the idea Shot Shell Mfgs invented Dove Season to sell more shells

Them gray missles with afterburners on, dipping, diving, shucking and jiving...
just like shooting a competititon of 4 boxes of skeet ...that heavy load , recoil, gun that does not fit...frustrates the living daylights out of you.
YOU "know" you "hit it"....umm remember them long shot strings? Gray Missle shot thru the "hole" in long shot string.

With a More Effecient loading of [short shot string] 28 ga , in a less recoil gun, you can continue to correctly mount gun to face, focus on the Dove, and that hard hitting short shot string will fell them.

-Learning to shoot.
Most kids get a .410 single shot to learn on. Granted some kids are small.
The .410 is the most inefficient load to bore ratio - go check out any tote board and scores.
Kids, ladies, small framed shooters, elderly, those with Physcial Limits...etc are being done a disservice learning on a .410.

Kids : "I got this wimpy kids gun and I cannot hit nothing".
Ditto for Ladies and other new shooters. These folks get turned off shooting.
New shooters need to make hits. One reason for little kids and ladies I use Popcorn Kernals instead of lead pellets in reloads so less recoil and they break balloons, even in .410.

Confidence.

Explain to a kid, they are not quite big enough, still you really really want them to learn and doing the best can with a .410. That kid, will respect the honesty, sincerity, and understand and learn. They will continue to shoot a .22 rifle and understand "they want me to, just I gotta get bigger before I can do shotguns better".

- Now get that kid a H&R Topper in 28 gauge, and they have "big person's gun". They will dust that stationary clay, blow a soda can to smithereens! The first targets from a clay target, or low 7 with break with authority! That first quail,dove rabbit, or squirrel - will "fell hard".
Remember this for later as well.

-1100 in 28 ga is what I prefer to start a new shooter with, teenager, and up no matter if a 6'4 adult male. I want to instill correct basic fundamentals and not worry about recoil or anything taking away from correct basic fundamenatals - while they powder targets

Once instilled, easy to transition to a 870 pump gun, or SxS or O/U in 28 ga.
Easy to transition to MY next favorite teaching shotgun - a Semi-Auto in 20 ga. I believe in working up as the student can to always maintain the correct basics, instill confidence and breaking targets.


-Age & Injuries.
I have worked with, know folks that detached Retinas , shoulder , neck , back surgeries. Doctors orders they Cannot shoot for some time, maybe never again. In some cases, with time and Dr's approval they can again shoot lighter recoil guns. Some are restricted to .22 lr, or .410. Quite a few can and are allowed to shoot the 28 ga. The 1100 again works real well.

In fact there is 28 gauge only Trap, and 5 stand ( other disciplines) set up by Detached Retina shooters first - then other physical limited shooter joined in.

These are fun! Challenging and allows shooters to once again shoot competition in something other than skeet. The 28 ga allows them to hunt again -within limits.

Elderly, arthritis can again tote that 28 ga, and take a grandson hunting, or shoot at a club.

- But the 28 gauge is too expenzive to shoot unless you shoot skeet

NO!! I beg to differ and my take:

How much is kid worth? How much is a Grandparent worth? How much is a person with a Physical Limit worth?

A heck of a lot IMO, in fact one cannot put a monetary value on these persons. You cannot put a value on a kid, learning and turning out to be OUR Future on Responsible Firearm Ownership. You cannot put a value on Grandparents getting to take that last hunt with grandkids, kids, family and friends.

$100 for a MEC single stage to reload 28 ga shells is a great investment in kids, family, friends, and passing forward Responsible Firearm Ownership.

I'm going to hit below the belt with one example, and I have others-

On a shelf in a den there is a Dove in a glass box a taxidermist did.

That was the first shot a little girl took on her first ever hunt, a dove hunt. That was the last hunt her Grandpa , her only surviving grandparent ever went on again. The little puppy grew old, and finally passed on that attended that hunt.
Little girl is a lady now, she still has that H&R Topper in 28 ga, and MEC reloader her and grandpa spent quality time on - and mom, daddy passed away when she was two.

I was there that day, and no amount of money would I take for having assisted that little girl learning on a 28 ga, being there when she felled that first dove, and outrunning the puppy to retrieve it.

Why a 28 gauge?

I believe in it for a whole lot of reasons - proven.

"About the time you realize that your father was a smart man, you have a teenager telling you just how stupid you are."

Offline Stilly bay

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2011, 10:35:19 PM »
28's are great guns if you know what your looking for. they make alot of clunky 28's built on 20 gauge frames, with short stubby barrels that are horribly misbalanced... whats the point? you might as well get some 28 gauge barrel reducers at a fraction of the cost and shoot expensive 28 gauge ammo that way.

another down side is unless you reload your steel shot options are very limited. but if you do reload there are some very fine 1oz lead reload recipes available that are good grouse/pheasant medicine.

in the hands of an experienced shooter with pointing dogs a 28 is a great tool as long as one can show some restraint.
"Love the dogs before loving the hunt; love the hunt for the dogs." - Ben O. Williams

“It is easy to forget that in the main we die only seven times more slowly than our dogs.”
― Jim Harrison

Offline wildweeds

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2011, 11:04:16 PM »
Small gauging and restraint is the name of the game...................iv'e killed quite a few birds(pheasants) dead as a wedge with my .410 but I've passed on 10 times as many as I've pulled the trigger on.Kids and .410's are a bad idea IMO.I learned on one,but I also got the "one shot,one kill,one more shell" type training which doesn't lead to a warm fuzzy feeling ........................I carried an empty gun many a time for missing.

Offline AWS

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2011, 11:57:07 PM »
Interesting coments on the Win 101, one of my favorites old timers.  My first was bought new in Taiwan in the mid 60's, still have it as the statement that theirs has 1000's of rounds throught it you can add a couple zero's to that for mine.  It started as my International Trap gun shooting in high temps that we had to pour water down the barrels to kill the mirage, they had buckets at each station.  After I quit shooting competitively I restocked it  and rebored the chokes for upland hunting and upland hunting competitions. 

The 101 was one of the few O/U that had mechanical triggers so if the first barrel failed to fire(cheap asian shotshells) all you had to do was pull the trigger again to get the second barrel to fire, no shifting the barrel selector or bumping the butt.

The 101 was a joint venture with Olin and Kendosha Manufacturing and are marked Olin-Kendosha on the bottom of the reciever they also made Nikko shotguns.  The early ones were exactly the same shotgun right down to the engraving the only difference was the labeling one had Winchester over the makers mark and the other Nikko and the Nikko clones were only marketed in the far east and europe I still have one of each.

Miruko only produced Charles Dalys and Brownings unless that changed in the late 80's.  The Miruko Charles Dalys were great handling O/U and are very under rated I would put them very close in quality to the Browning Superpose.

Yes the Bobwhite is the one I'm looking at, nice enough to feel like a good shotgun yet not so expensive that I have to worry about a salt spray on it.
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska

Offline AWS

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2011, 02:19:04 PM »
Bringing up the 101 peaked my curiosity and have spent awhile looking at alot of 101 picks and a suprising number of them are un-marked as to the maker.  Learn something new when you study.  I've owned 5 over the years and they were all early models and marked.

AWS
After the first shot the rest are just noise.

Make mine a Minaska

Offline fethrduster

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2011, 05:01:22 PM »
Obviously, the O/U is sorta the traditional and desired upland gun..

What do you want???

I've never heard an o/u described as "traditional" before.  Interesting how times change.

Offline wildweeds

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »
yeah fethr,
Parker,Fox,L.C.Smith would be traditional and all SXS

quote author=fethrduster link=topic=89410.msg1131649#msg1131649 date=1325034082]
Obviously, the O/U is sorta the traditional and desired upland gun..

What do you want???

I've never heard an o/u described as "traditional" before.  Interesting how times change.
[/quote]

Offline Stilly bay

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 05:21:49 PM »
I guess it all depends on how far your tradition goes back. if it weren't for finding a moldy box of burton spiller, george bird evans, and charlie waterman books when I was a kid I wouldn't have any upland tradition and probably no idea what upland bird hunting tradition is.
"Love the dogs before loving the hunt; love the hunt for the dogs." - Ben O. Williams

“It is easy to forget that in the main we die only seven times more slowly than our dogs.”
― Jim Harrison

Offline Kowsrule30

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2011, 01:00:21 AM »
I have a Remington model 330 in 12 gauge..... Shoots great.... Used it on ducks and all uplands, plus grouse....   

Offline fethrduster

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2011, 08:36:30 AM »
I guess it all depends on how far your tradition goes back. if it weren't for finding a moldy box of burton spiller, george bird evans, and charlie waterman books when I was a kid I wouldn't have any upland tradition and probably no idea what upland bird hunting tradition is.

I'm in my late 40's, so I guess if you live long enough, you're exposed to upland tradition sooner or later. I used to shoot an 8lb 12ga Weatherby Orion o/u when I was younger and didn't know any different, and then I picked up a slim, svelte 6lb 16ga belgian sxs at a gun shop, and I couldn't believe how much livelier it felt.  I could wrap my whole hand around the shallow receiver, a big change from the o/u I was used to.  After I bought it, my shooting improved dramatically.  Scored my first triple on chukars with that gun, and I've never looked back.  I only have four guns now, but they're all sxs's (two are hammer guns), all from the 1880's to the 1930's, the golden era of gun making. 

Offline predatorpro

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2011, 08:51:52 AM »
i have a browning cynergy, love it! any browning over under is a great gun, but most of them are on the spendy side, i like the cynergy its pretty lite and have never had a problem with it

Offline Hornseeker

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2011, 09:46:48 PM »
I handled a 20 gauge superposed today that I flat out loved the feel of...

And yeah, believe it or not, an O/U is considered a traditional upland gun now... when I think SXS...I think of grouse hunting in Hew Hampshire or something like that! But I love SXS's too... will carry my old 20 sxs some next year for sure.
Chuck Norris puts the "Laughter" in "Manslaughter"

Offline Miles

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Re: Who Shoots an O/U, which one? Why?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2011, 09:52:01 PM »
I handled a 20 gauge superposed today that I flat out loved the feel of...

And yeah, believe it or not, an O/U is considered a traditional upland gun now... when I think SXS...I think of grouse hunting in Hew Hampshire or something like that! But I love SXS's too... will carry my old 20 sxs some next year for sure.


C'mon Hornseeker, give a guy some credit....    I used my O/U for grouse hunting in New Hampshire.  Sure it's not "Hew" Hampshire, but it's close enough. :chuckle:

 


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