2012 Governors and Raffle Tags

[Kazekurt]

I have no problem with these tags as I'm a firm believer that people shouldn't be punished for being successful; especially if the money really benefits wildlife.  However, in this thread no one has yet brought up the greater issue which to me is: should it be considered fair chase?  This is an extremely tough question as not all scenarios are the same but here's some food for thought and I'll let you guys make the call.
Scenario # 1
A man pays 167, 000 for a governers tag.  With this tag, he elects to hunt the Monroe mountain unit in Utah which normally requires about 15 years to get a tag.  He then hires an outfitter to keep track of a specific bull for a prolonged period of time.  He then goes out to hunt the bull with a rifle during muzzleloader season and is led by the outfitter to the exact location of the bull.  He misses and then goes home.  A week or so later, the outfitter calls him back, says he's found the bull again!  The hunter flies back to Utah and is once again shown the exact location of the bull.  This time he connects and fills his tag.  The bull is of world record caliber.

Scenario 2. A man uses a large sum of cash to obtain access to a large acreage high fence Property. He treks around the property solo and eventually finds and kills a world record caliber bull.

Scenario 3.  A native hunter uses his tribal rights to access a permit area and proceeds to shoot a world record caliber bull with a rifle but does so while other permit holders are also hunting with rifles.

Scenario 4.  A native hunter uses his tribal rights to access a permit area and shoots a world record caliber bull with a rifle in a non rifle season or a closed season.

Scenario 5. A man sees a world record caliber bull during bow season on state land;chases him all season but can't get a shot.  On the last day of the bow season he shoots him with a rifle.

Scenario 6. A man own a large amount of acreage in a permit only area with no land owner tags.  He sees a bull grow old on his property for 8 years.  He never is able to draw a permit and finally shoots the bull anyway.  It is world record caliber.

Scenario 7. A hunter obtains an OTC tag, scouts like crazy, competes with other hunters on public land, and is fortunate enough to shoot a huge bull that is the biggest bull ever measured outside of the 6 bulls in the aforementioned scenarios.

So, who should have the world record and what should be considered fair chase?  Hunter one used wealth to enhance his odds relative to all other hunters, gain access, plus used a weapon others couldn't use. Hunter two used his wealth for access+ benefited from possible farm genetics and nutrition.  Hunter 3 used tribal rights to gain access but was otherwise no different from other permit holders.  Hunter 4 used tribal rights for access + used a weapon others couldn't use.  Hunter five worked hard to find a nice bull on state land, competed with others, but eventually used a rifle illegally during bow season.  Hunter six had the advantage of quality ground!  Knew a monster was growing old on his place.  Shot it with an appropriate weapon for the timeframe but due to circumstances outside his control was never able to acquire the legal right to hunt his own land.  Hunter 7 is a hunting bada$$, had no advantage over anyone else other than luck and his hunting prowess.  His bull is one inch smaller than the other 6.  According to B&C, only two of these hunters would meet the fair chase requirement if all facts were presented accurately, even though one of the two cases used several of the same type of advantages(and one could argue more)that disqualified several of the other scenarios.  Thoughts please!

[Mr Mykiss]

Uummmm... I just wanted to know if'n he filled the other tag

[huntnphool]

 

[6x6in6]

Uummmm... I just wanted to know if'n he filled the other tag

I'm sure we'll find out at some point when all the minutia has been tossed around.   

[Tbar]

I have no problem with these tags as I'm a firm believer that people shouldn't be punished for being successful; especially if the money really benefits wildlife.  However, in this thread no one has yet brought up the greater issue which to me is: should it be considered fair chase?  This is an extremely tough question as not all scenarios are the same but here's some food for thought and I'll let you guys make the call.
Scenario # 1
A man pays 167, 000 for a governers tag.  With this tag, he elects to hunt the Monroe mountain unit in Utah which normally requires about 15 years to get a tag.  He then hires an outfitter to keep track of a specific bull for a prolonged period of time.  He then goes out to hunt the bull with a rifle during muzzleloader season and is led by the outfitter to the exact location of the bull.  He misses and then goes home.  A week or so later, the outfitter calls him back, says he's found the bull again!  The hunter flies back to Utah and is once again shown the exact location of the bull.  This time he connects and fills his tag.  The bull is of world record caliber.

Scenario 2. A man uses a large sum of cash to obtain access to a large acreage high fence Property. He treks around the property solo and eventually finds and kills a world record caliber bull.

Scenario 3.  A native hunter uses his tribal rights to access a permit area and proceeds to shoot a world record caliber bull with a rifle but does so while other permit holders are also hunting with rifles.

Scenario 4.  A native hunter uses his tribal rights to access a permit area and shoots a world record caliber bull with a rifle in a non rifle season or a closed season.

Scenario 5. A man sees a world record caliber bull during bow season on state land;chases him all season but can't get a shot.  On the last day of the bow season he shoots him with a rifle.

Scenario 6. A man own a large amount of acreage in a permit only area with no land owner tags.  He sees a bull grow old on his property for 8 years.  He never is able to draw a permit and finally shoots the bull anyway.  It is world record caliber.

Scenario 7. A hunter obtains an OTC tag, scouts like crazy, competes with other hunters on public land, and is fortunate enough to shoot a huge bull that is the biggest bull ever measured outside of the 6 bulls in the aforementioned scenarios.

So, who should have the world record and what should be considered fair chase?  Hunter one used wealth to enhance his odds relative to all other hunters, gain access, plus used a weapon others couldn't use. Hunter two used his wealth for access+ benefited from possible farm genetics and nutrition.  Hunter 3 used tribal rights to gain access but was otherwise no different from other permit holders.  Hunter 4 used tribal rights for access + used a weapon others couldn't use.  Hunter five worked hard to find a nice bull on state land, competed with others, but eventually used a rifle illegally during bow season.  Hunter six had the advantage of quality ground!  Knew a monster was growing old on his place.  Shot it with an appropriate weapon for the timeframe but due to circumstances outside his control was never able to acquire the legal right to hunt his own land.  Hunter 7 is a hunting bada$$, had no advantage over anyone else other than luck and his hunting prowess.  His bull is one inch smaller than the other 6.  According to B&C, only two of these hunters would meet the fair chase requirement if all facts were presented accurately, even though one of the two cases used several of the same type of advantages(and one could argue more)that disqualified several of the other scenarios.  Thoughts please!

Maybe start a new thread.

[Alan K]

I'm not saying theres anything wrong with it, if I had the money id be buying tags all over the place.

 

Man I'd be all over the place buying middle of the road landowner tags with the same money.  Could easily do 10-15 hunts for the price of the one!    Maybe one day. . .

[Kazekurt]

Alan k, you clearly think like me!  I always value the hunt over the trophy!  If I could hunt 15 cool places, see country I've never seen, and spend a month or two doing it I'd probably take that over one killer hunt; though it is nice to slap a tag on a whopper every now and then:-)

My long post earlier was not meant to disparage governers tag hunters; especially considering many hunt their tail off for months looking for the right animal to justify all that cash.  Clearly you have to love the sport to drop that kind of cash and many of these guys also put up a lot of money to protect our gun rights, habitat, and many other things that benefit all sportsman.  My post was more to generate discussion on what is fair chase as I think B&C sometimes selectively applies this standard.  I'm not sure their really is a solution as hunting for the most part is inherently unequal.  Some have the benefit of wealth, some have killer land access, some have beneficial ancestry, some have lots of time, etc.  the reality is that everyone uses the advantages they have in the pursuit of this beloved sport!  If I had the cash I'd use it to my advantage too, though for me I doubt horn size would ever be the end all.  Any animal earned is a trophy and a lot of auction tag holders still earn there trophy.  I just wish some of the hard earned trophies would get more press, even if they aren't records as those are the stories that I most enjoy.  I do enjoy all pics of world record caliber animals though as they fuel me when I'm running on empty!  I figure if i keep at it, the guy in those pics could someday be me:-)

[Boss .300 winmag]

 

[huntnnw]

neither do I, but what I do have an issue with is the record book entries for these animals they SHOULD not be in the same category as a DIY public land or OTC hunt period

[huntnphool]

neither do I, but what I do have an issue with is the record book entries for these animals they SHOULD not be in the same category as a DIY public land or OTC hunt period

I don't see why not.

[Kazekurt]

I also think a public land OTC category would be cool.  I'm not advocating to exclude the other trophies entirely, just make a seperate category.  SCI has seperate categories for estate and fair chase so its not unheard of.  I just think it would be interesting to know how public land OTC bucks rank in comparison to each other as many of us find ourself predominately only in this category. 

Phool, you asked why not.  I guess my question would be this.  If we allow a gov tag holder to be recognized for shooting an animal outside of the normal prescribed season or with a weapon inconsistent with the normal prescribed season what is the difference between him and the hunters in the other scenarios?  If an Indian goes into the entiat in December and shoots a world record in December should we recognize it?  Though I don't agree with it, he is there hunting legally just like the guy with the governers tag so how can you really accept one and not the other as the only difference is one used wealth to obtain access while the other used birth.  I'm with you 100% on the greater implications of the tribal hunts but if you disregard those issues and simply make a one on one record book comparison their really is no difference.  Comparing some records is really an apples and oranges debate.  It would be like allowing an athlete at the Olympics to break a world record in the 100 meter dash by starting 30 yds closer to the finish.  Can you imagine the outcry if we allowed one athlete to gain a 30 yd head start simply by agreeing to donate the greatest sum of money to charity.  We already have different classes for weapons because we recognize they can't be equitably compared so huntnw suggestion isn't unprecedented.

[bobcat]

I think what some of you are missing here is that the record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter.

[huntnphool]

Phool, you asked why not.  I guess my question would be this.  If we allow a gov tag holder to be recognized for shooting an animal outside of the normal prescribed season or with a weapon inconsistent with the normal prescribed season what is the difference between him and the hunters in the other scenarios?

"Assumption is the mother of all f#%€ ups"

This is the same kind of thinking that has people pushing for more ineffective gun control. You assume that the people with these tags have only hunted "out of season" that is to say when nobody else is, or between or after the states mandated seasons. This is not the case, so why should those animals be excluded from the books?

I think what some of you are missing here is that the record books are meant to honor the animal, not the hunter.

[bearpaw]

That's a heck of a bull congrats to the hunter.

I think some of these "other" discussions should be started in another topic if you want to have them. 

[arees]

That is a great elk.  I'm glad I'm not worried whether his is bigger than mine.