steadiness: how important is it to you?

[Stilly bay]

this is for retriever and pointer guys.

in the last year I have let my setter slip on being steady to wing and shot, I used to think it was pretty important mainly for a safety factor. I mostly hunt alone so safety isn't a concern, and honestly I think I have recovered more pheasants  because the dog was on them when they came down vs losing shot opportunities because the dog was in the way. to me thats a good thing and it works for me. 

my labs on the other hand know not to budge until released. we hunt along moving water a lot and if a bird comes down with its head up I have to shoot again or a cripple can gain too much distance over a dog way too fast. last thing I want is for a dog to break and run in front of me as Im shooting a cripple. so safety is a huge issue. I also want the dog to go after the birds in the order I want him to go after, not which ever one he wants to go after- its too easy to lose birds down the river if things aren't done properly.

 I can probably count with one hand the amount of rock steady duck dogs I have seen in the field over the years, and even fewer pointing dogs. it seems to be a major safety issue that is overlooked. how important is it to you?

[Happy Gilmore]

Very important. Since you mentioned pheasant: I had my first triple on pheasant last season. I knew Kaie was on to a bunch of birds, saw them run out of the cover into higher grass band then open cut corn behind it so, they had to pause and fly. I hit a whistle sit, first bird flushed, shot it. She marked it DOA. Second bird got up on shot, DOA. Third bird was out further and I shot. Knocked it down and it hit the ground running. Kaie wanted the flopping bird in front of her bad but, I gave her a hard verbal left back to the runner. She took it but, stopped short towards the second DOA bird. I have her another hard whistle sit and cast her back to the area of the runner where she picked up scent and trailed it about 300 yards where she got it on another property which had cattle and was not open to hunting.

She brought back the still alive rooster and I sent her to each of the other two dead birds in the cut corn. It was probably one of the most memorable and proud dog owner days I've ever had....In addition to my first pheasant triple.

Had I not had rock steady control over her and been able to cast her off of the short flopping bird I never would have recovered the running rooster. A trained dog saves game.

[Stilly bay]

talk about ending the pheasant hunt on a high note! I bet you skipped back the truck.

thats a perfect example of why steadiness is crucial. just think if you had a couple more hunters with and a few more birds on the ground, one well trained dog like yours would be worth half a dozen that were out of control.

well trained dogs save game and saving game is good conservation... never did understand why so many pointer guys don't make retrieving and recovery a priority, but thats a can of worms for another day lol

[Bluemoon]

To me it is very important. 
1.  I love to hunt covey birds, Sharptails, Huns, Chucker and Quail,  Even where we hunt Pheasants it is not uncommon to have 20 plus birds in the air.  There are many times we will have multiable birds down on the ground before I send them for the retrieve.   Without the dogs being steady that would never happen they would just blow through the birds that did not get up on the original rise.

2.  This is most important to me.  I guide with all my dogs,  I want them behind the guns out of the line of fire where they are safe.  Some people can get very miopic when the sky is full of birds. 

[Happy Gilmore]

To me it is very important. 
1.  I love to hunt covey birds, Sharptails, Huns, Chucker and Quail,  Even where we hunt Pheasants it is not uncommon to have 20 plus birds in the air.  There are many times we will have multiable birds down on the ground before I send them for the retrieve.   Without the dogs being steady that would never happen they would just blow through the birds that did not get up on the original rise.

2.  This is most important to me.  I guide with all my dogs,  I want them behind the guns out of the line of fire where they are safe.  Some people can get very miopic when the sky is full of birds.

This reminded me of the little demonstration we did at the Puyallup fairgrounds with (I think) Blue and Kaie. People were amazed to see a dog on point(Blue) the bird flushed(wing stripped pigeon from a launcher) cap pistol bang, both dogs remain steady and the retriever pick up the bird in front of the pointer and bring it back un-harmed.

We later released the pigeon to fly away and live happily forever after according to Richard's words to the crowd...

[wildweeds]

Mine are broke,and it's pretty cool,but if there is a minor bobble I don't fret about it much,the thing about breaking them is that once they are broke they may slip a little here or there but it's just a hop and a verbal correction is all that is needed to stop em,generally a sigh of disgust is all it takes.If you have a dog that is just steady to wing when the wheels come off the bus it's a nuclear meltdown chase  of over the horizon.

[Stilly bay]

1.  I love to hunt covey birds, Sharptails, Huns, Chucker and Quail,  Even where we hunt Pheasants it is not uncommon to have 20 plus birds in the air.  T

that is something I forgot to consider when I started this thread. I have been a west side grouser / release site hunter for most of my current hunting dog's career and besides the odd mountain quail or grouse brood, we have never run into a more than a double of anything. I might just get back on the wagon before too long.

Mine are broke,

do you allow them to relocate on pheasants? do you think relocating hurts your dogs steadiness to wing and shot or is two different things?

[wildweeds]

They relocate when I walk up try to flush to no avail then tap them behind the head and in a quiet calm voice say "Careful". Doesn't have anything to do with how steady they are after the shot,two completely different things IMO.I do have one that will self relocate to pin on her own,it's her gig and she does it her way,I used to get mad at her but......................... she's pinned alot of birds with that tactic in her 9 year carreer.She was broke all the way,but really held it against us.A good dog that minds well but her thing is her thing.Sometimes she won't move a muscle and be a perfect angel and other times,she does the circle to pin manuever 3 times,you flush the bird and shoot and she'll be looking at you for the go ahead fetchem up.At the end of the day................... dogs are dogs,going to do some things that tick you off,laugh,make you proud all in the same day.I don't want a mechanical commanded machine,they just don't look like they are having fun and that fun can be just the thing that stands the hair up on the back of your neck......................... And THAT is FUN

[Stilly bay]

................... dogs are dogs,going to do some things that tick you off,laugh,make you proud all in the same day.I don't want a mechanical commanded machine,they just don't look like they are having fun and that fun can be just the thing that stands the hair up on the back of your neck......................... And THAT is FUN

I wouldn't have it any other way.

when my setter starts to relocate on a grouse or pheasant its almost like he shifts down to his lowest gear until he pins the bird, absolutely gives me the chills watching it.

[Blackjaw]

I know this is just supposed to be for Labs and Pointers, but steadiness is critical for my Cockers because I also Field Trial (where it is a requirement). Keeping a dog steady during hunting season is tough/impossible (Ex. how do you know if your dog is steady if it is flushing birds in the middle of the cattails?), so I expect to have to do some 'resteadying' after the season. Hunting with a steady dog has alot of advantages (no chasing birds, no birds flushed out of range (by the dog, of course the latter in the season you get, the more wild flushes you'll get).  I personally think dogs also mark better when they are sitting and concentrating on the fall, but you will get others who disagree.

[AWS]

I've trained my dog to be steady for master level hunt tests but for upland hunting I don't mind that they break or arn't steady.  My dog has won hunting competitions on time alone because she had the retrieve half completed by the time the bird hit the ground. I can stop or recall my dog with a toot of the whistle. 

For waterfowl I want them steady.  There is nothing more frustrating than having a dog break as the birds are coming into the decoys and flare the flock.

[Special T]

My first dog that i trained, Oso a Chessie, almost died because he broke. I was sittign in a pit blind and threw the gun up to shoot some ducks. Oso was sitting next to me on the outside of the pit. When he saw me throw the gun up he learched forward infront of my gun.It went off right by his head. I was shaking so bad i had to quit hunting that day.
My dog now Chief isn't as solid as Happy's dog but Definatly says by my side  and doens't jump the gun.  I Make it a point to work on dog to be steady. 

[jetjockey]

It is very important to me.  I hunt quail and pheasants, and my dog is
field trailed as well.  Not only do I keep her steady, I also have to keep her "styled up" as well.  When I drop her off for the spring circuit it's typical for me to hunt her the weekend prior to the start of trial season.  The trainer doesn't have time to steady her up if I let her go.  For covey birds there is no better do then a fully broke dog IMO.  However, for pheasants, I could see where a dog that is only steady to wing could be an advantage.  But, not always.  Last year in SD I knocked down a bird into a dirt field over a dog that was only broke to wing.  The bird hit the ground running and came right back at me towards the milo. I was going to finish it off before it made the milo but the dog was right on its tail.  Unfortunately the bird won the foot race and we never found it.  Had I been hunting over a broke dog that bird would have been smoked since I wouldn't have needed to worry about shooting the dog.

[Stilly bay]

so far there have been some great responses to the importance of steadiness.... so where are the guys whose dogs are not steady? 

[CP]

so far there have been some great responses to the importance of steadiness.... so where are the guys whose dogs are not steady?

My dog's not steady, he breaks at the 1st gunshot.  He’s dove into a barbed wire fence, over a cliff, through thin ice.  No amount of collar corrections seems to faze him if there is a retrieve to be made.  I’m hoping he’ll grow out of it, if he lives long enough.

[Cascade_fisher]

I'm in the broke dog group. Steady to wing and shot.

[Happy Gilmore]

It is very important to me.  I hunt quail and pheasants, and my dog is
field trailed as well.  Not only do I keep her steady, I also have to keep her "styled up" as well.  When I drop her off for the spring circuit it's typical for me to hunt her the weekend prior to the start of trial season.  The trainer doesn't have time to steady her up if I let her go.  For covey birds there is no better do then a fully broke dog IMO.  However, for pheasants, I could see where a dog that is only steady to wing could be an advantage.  But, not always.  Last year in SD I knocked down a bird into a dirt field over a dog that was only broke to wing.  The bird hit the ground running and came right back at me towards the milo. I was going to finish it off before it made the milo but the dog was right on its tail.  Unfortunately the bird won the foot race and we never found it.  Had I been hunting over a broke dog that bird would have been smoked since I wouldn't have needed to worry about shooting the dog.

or get a dog that doesn't point wounded runners...

[LiveandLearn]

Waterfowl dogs meed to be steady imo. Speaking strictly for hunting pheasants as long as you can call a dog off one bird and onto another I don't think it matters. For every story about a bird that someone got because there dog didn't break there is one because the dog got onto a cripple fast enough because it did break.

[jetjockey]

It is very important to me.  I hunt quail and pheasants, and my dog is
field trailed as well.  Not only do I keep her steady, I also have to keep her "styled up" as well.  When I drop her off for the spring circuit it's typical for me to hunt her the weekend prior to the start of trial season.  The trainer doesn't have time to steady her up if I let her go.  For covey birds there is no better do then a fully broke dog IMO.  However, for pheasants, I could see where a dog that is only steady to wing could be an advantage.  But, not always.  Last year in SD I knocked down a bird into a dirt field over a dog that was only broke to wing.  The bird hit the ground running and came right back at me towards the milo. I was going to finish it off before it made the milo but the dog was right on its tail.  Unfortunately the bird won the foot race and we never found it.  Had I been hunting over a broke dog that bird would have been smoked since I wouldn't have needed to worry about shooting the dog.

or get a dog that doesn't point wounded runners...

I wish it would have stopped and pointed, then I could have killed it.  The way it was running I knew if it hit the milo it was gone.  Even our small Brits were getting slowed down by the knocked down milo, but the pheasants had super speedways underneath.  That stuff tears dogs up once it's been knocked over by snow.  But the birds also hold a lot better as well.

[Happy Gilmore]

It is very important to me.  I hunt quail and pheasants, and my dog is
field trailed as well.  Not only do I keep her steady, I also have to keep her "styled up" as well.  When I drop her off for the spring circuit it's typical for me to hunt her the weekend prior to the start of trial season.  The trainer doesn't have time to steady her up if I let her go.  For covey birds there is no better do then a fully broke dog IMO.  However, for pheasants, I could see where a dog that is only steady to wing could be an advantage.  But, not always.  Last year in SD I knocked down a bird into a dirt field over a dog that was only broke to wing.  The bird hit the ground running and came right back at me towards the milo. I was going to finish it off before it made the milo but the dog was right on its tail.  Unfortunately the bird won the foot race and we never found it.  Had I been hunting over a broke dog that bird would have been smoked since I wouldn't have needed to worry about shooting the dog.

or get a dog that doesn't point wounded runners...

  That stuff tears dogs up once it's been knocked over by snow.  But the birds also hold a lot better as well.

that's just crop damage from all the locals that hunt with retrievers...

[jetjockey]

Na, it's private land and they dont allow toilet dogs on it.

[Happy Gilmore]

Na, it's private land and they dont allow toilet dogs on it.

lol...... Sorry, you can't have a meat dog and a field trial dog no matter how bad you want it to be.....A meat dog will out hunt a field trial dog every day of the week.

[jetjockey]

Na, it's private land and they dont allow toilet dogs on it.

lol...... Sorry, you can't have a meat dog and a field trial dog no matter how bad you want it to be.....A meat dog will out hunt a field trial dog every day of the week.

Wanna bet?  But my question is, what's a meat dog?  And what's a trial dog?  Is a dog that hunts for meat 90% of the time but runs in a few broke stake walking trials a meat dog or a trial dog? What about a dog that trials 90% of the time but hunts 10% of the time.  What about a dog that does both 50% of the time.  What about a dog who is used for guiding 100% off horse on a southern quail plantation that is a retired FC?  Is that a trial dog or a meat dog?  How do you tell a trial dog from a meat dog when you are picking out an 8 week old pup?  Id love to know how to pick one out because my dog was supposed to be a meat dog, but she runs trials as well.  The pup that was going to be given to me that I had my dad take was a field trial reject, but now she's one of the best trial prospects my trainer has seen in years, but she is only hunted.   Please Happy, with all your knowledge please explain it to me. 

[wildweeds]

Your a touch off base happy, for instance I hunted with a FC/AFC/NAFC RU/NFC setter female one year,with that many titles you'd think she be the cats meow..................... wrong my derby aged dog did all of the birdfinding that particular day(she always has been a finder).But I hunted my FC last season on quail in Yakima and the dog found 4 coveys in 45 minutes,his competition was 3 GSPs that are what would be classified as "meat" dogs,never been trialed,are steady to wing,mind well and have hunted alot.To say any one type of dog is better than another be it FT or Meat dog is borderline crazy,at the end of the day no matter the titles or birds counted on the clicker counter........................... it's just a dog,some are great,some are good,lot's ain't worth feeding but..................they are our buddies.

  And for whatever it's worth.................. in my lifetime of dogs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the absolute best was not a FT winner nor would she have been allowed to compete................... She was an unregistered springer spaniel that I got for FREE!!!!She cleaned clocks on everything under the sun breedwise on pheasants and the goofy bitch would point quail on her own.Which was actually kind of nice because you knew "Blue buzzbombs".My FC is a very close second to her,he is the best one I've had in the pointing dogs,the springer was the best overall.

[jetjockey]

Wild.  I agree you.  You can't make a claim that a meat dog is a better hunting dog than a trial dog.  Just like you can't say a trial dog doesn't make a good wild bird dog just because most trials use released birds.  Almost every trial dog out here spends summers in the Dakotas being run on wild birds, but some of those dogs have never been foot hunted so they would be a handful off foot without a little experience. 

If I had to pick one single breed of dog for pheasants, it would hands down be a springer.  They might not be the best early season dog in prairie grass or low fields , but overall, both early season and late season, a springer is dam hard to beat.  We hunt over 6 or 8 of them every year.  They are awesome in milo and anything where a pheasant has a path to really run. Last year we hunted over unsteady meat dogs and one of them was a champion who was fully steady.  Huntin over him was a joy.  He was awesome.  In the grass though, a pointer will still most likely find and pin more birds.  But overall, in all cover, both early and late season, give me a steady springer.

[wildweeds]

Jet

   Concur on the phez in crp grass such as eastern washington where the birds are not as concentrated as the eastern states chink hotbed , a pointing breed just covers more ground,having one that is broke helps the hunter get into position to do some shooting I've had dogs on point 2-300 yards out and farther having them broke allows you to get to em ,but in a creek bottom situation gimme a roto rooter springer.

[LiveandLearn]

pointing them 2-300 yds out in this state allows you to always get them? If you are talking public land, more times than not in this state you do that and the bird has ran to the next county by the time you get up to the dog or the bird has flushed wild. I am not saying you won't get some birds hunting like that, I don't think it is the most effective way to hunt wild birds in Washington.

[Happy Gilmore]

If your hunting the grasslands in SoDak which have milo plots in the middle of good crp you'll never see a dog on point. Maybe on private game ranches where the conditions are closely managed to favor particular dogs and have people grooming the grounds... Wild hunting, CRP which is healthy during bird season should be at shoulder height or taller. Often, where I hunted for two weeks, where we found the most concentrated birds the crp grass was brushing in my face and I'm 6'.

[LiveandLearn]

If your hunting the grasslands in SoDak which have milo plots in the middle of good crp you'll never see a dog on point. Maybe on private game ranches where the conditions are closely managed to favor particular dogs and have people grooming the grounds... Wild hunting, CRP which is healthy during bird season should be at shoulder height or taller. Often, where I hunted for two weeks, where we found the most concentrated birds the crp grass was brushing in my face and I'm 6'.

That is what beeper collars are for 

[jetjockey]

I rarely see my dog on point anyways.  That's why they invented the Garmin Astro.  Sometimes I don't know how we ever hunted without them.  I've hunted the grasslands and depending on the time of year, Happy is right, the stuff is tall.   But we hunt SD mid Nov or later when a lot of the cover has been knocked down by snow.  If anyone ever hunts the grasslands, get off the highway.  Look for the "stairs" on the map.  They are on the west side in the back of the grassland that make up the boarder between the private land and grasslandslands.  There the grasslands butt up against private land.  Lots of birds in that area due to the private land and everyone else hammering the stuff right off the highway.