Wolves do affect business

[AspenBud]

Its not a big mental jump to see that elk are moving away from predator pressure. They come out of the hills and stay around houses... I know this is the case because i see more deer during modern rifle in W WA around people's homes than nearly any other time. I bet if they do shoot them up it won't help the over all numbers...  We all know from hunting that certain weather conditions congregate animals in areas where the rest of the time they aren't there, or are very few. Why whould we not see that with predators?

Elk go onto peoples' property for an easy meal. There is a reason people with crops think they are a pest.

[Special T]

True but the article YOU posted talked about a ranch that has been around FOREVER and only had a half dozen or so bull Elk hanging around and now there are THOUSANDS! Do they like an easy meal, you bet... What has changed since the half dozen or so elk and the thousands now?

I didn't think elk breed like whitetails and explode overnight?

[AspenBud]

True but the article YOU posted talked about a ranch that has been around FOREVER and only had a half dozen or so bull Elk hanging around and now there are THOUSANDS! Do they like an easy meal, you bet... What has changed since the half dozen or so elk and the thousands now?

I didn't think elk breed like whitetails and explode overnight?

The article explained what has happened pretty clearly.

Sorry, but not every landowner loves elk and others love them so much they don't allow public hunting of them.

I'm not sure how bright an idea turning loose a bunch of wolves was, but if you're the state and you have people whose crops are being destroyed by elk and hunters can't get the job done because other land owners severely restrict hunting, what are you going to do?

[Special T]

Oh agree that limiting hunter acess is part of the problem, and if you cant figure that out you got trouble.

[AspenBud]

Oh agree that limiting hunter acess is part of the problem, and if you cant figure that out you got trouble.

Agreed

But I've seen it posted quite frequently that increasing limits would have had the same affect as wolves on any elk population problems. At least in some areas that just wasn't, and probably still isn't, true.

[idaho guy]

 special t is right about the predators moving the game into town. Around my house there was a decent  elk herd living a few miles behind me on the forest service. This year they were few miles the other way living by the highway and the dump! And no you cant hunt them there. Seen it in other places around coeur d alene too. elk and deer moving into town. They did not do this till the wolves starting showing up in the mountains. The deer always seemed to hang on the outskirsts of town for an easy meal i guess. Elk pattern really changed though

[bearpaw]

Actually funny guy, I have helped a lot of people out on hunting in Montana, including when I lived there. 

Would you feel better if I told them all the elk were dead?

If you or I and a few others suggest there is still good elk hunting to be had anywhere in Idaho or Montana we are immediately labeled wolf lovers and accused of distorting the "huge impact" wolves have had on elk populations, usually by bearpaw...but ol' Bearpaw says he's got good hunting down in SE Idaho and its not questioned.      The irony is just hilarious.

Nice try buddy to hide the localized effects of wolves. 

Documented IDFG Facts:
Idaho has numerous units which have not been affected by wolves yet (apparently this is where Idahohntr hunts, when those unit statistics are combined with the wolf impacted units it hide's the localized impact of wolves). IDFG surveys show that in several units the elk population has been impacted so severely that the elk population is only at 20% to 60% of the pre-wolf elk population. IDFG has determined and stated that wolves are the primary limiting factor to herd recovery. It's all on the IDFG website and has been posted on this forum numerous times.

I should ignore such irrational comments, but for anyone to continue contradicting wolf impacts is simply, well, .......?

Now I'm just guessing, but this could be a reason for a person to be viewed as a wolf lover"? 

You are killing me here...my comments are irrational...I'm a wolf lover...but were saying THE SAME DARN THING:    Wolves impact some units, but there is still good elk hunting in Idaho (and Montana). We obviously disagree about some confounding factors and perhaps just exactly how much of the state is still good elk hunting...but we largely agree there is still good elk hunting to be had in Idaho. I guess you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. 

It seems you object to all the data proving wolves are the limiting factor in impacted areas. Maybe you aren't and I am just imagining that, but it sure seemed that way. I was going to say the same about your arguing. If we are in agreement we can both move on and fry bigger fish. 

[Northway]

If you want to find out how many guides have gone out of business all you should have to do i ask each state's game agency for the numbers. They make you get a permit to guide so they should have the records... maybe even a online seach could turn up the historical numbers if that is important. 

If someone looks into how many outfitters have left the business in certain areas, it would be important to look at how many drifted in and out of the business before wolf impacts so you can isolate the incremental difference.

[bearpaw]

If you want to find out how many guides have gone out of business all you should have to do i ask each state's game agency for the numbers. They make you get a permit to guide so they should have the records... maybe even a online seach could turn up the historical numbers if that is important. 

If someone looks into how many outfitters have left the business in certain areas, it would be important to look at how many drifted in and out of the business before wolf impacts so you can isolate the incremental difference.

Prior to wolf introduction the outfitter number was steady, yes some quit but new ones started. I recently applied for an abandoned area in Idaho, I was the only outfitter to apply for that area. 10 years ago I applied for another area and there were 6 outfitters trying to get that same area. I recently heard that we've lost nearly half the hunting outfitters in Idaho.

[Special T]

Oh agree that limiting hunter acess is part of the problem, and if you cant figure that out you got trouble.

Agreed

But I've seen it posted quite frequently that increasing limits would have had the same affect as wolves on any elk population problems. At least in some areas that just wasn't, and probably still isn't, true.

Amongst many of the problems with elk in the skagit valley acess is definatly one of them. Some think they are a pet, others a nusance but very few give permission.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

special t is right about the predators moving the game into town. Around my house there was a decent  elk herd living a few miles behind me on the forest service. This year they were few miles the other way living by the highway and the dump! And no you cant hunt them there. Seen it in other places around coeur d alene too. elk and deer moving into town. They did not do this till the wolves starting showing up in the mountains. The deer always seemed to hang on the outskirsts of town for an easy meal i guess. Elk pattern really changed though

That's funny, because the predators move right into town with the prey, so how is that moving away from predators. I know of three different cougars and two bears that have been seen within 4 blocks of my house and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more. I've seen one of the cougars, two blocks away and It was seen once in our neighbor's driveway and once in my yard. Then a few blocks away there has been a couple smaller one's seen.  All animals go where their food is.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Prior to wolf introduction the outfitter number was steady, yes some quit but new ones started. I recently applied for an abandoned area in Idaho, I was the only outfitter to apply for that area. 10 years ago I applied for another area and there were 6 outfitters trying to get that same area. I recently heard that we've lost nearly half the hunting outfitters in Idaho.

Now why would you want to have an area where you will obviously go broke?   

[bearpaw]

Prior to wolf introduction the outfitter number was steady, yes some quit but new ones started. I recently applied for an abandoned area in Idaho, I was the only outfitter to apply for that area. 10 years ago I applied for another area and there were 6 outfitters trying to get that same area. I recently heard that we've lost nearly half the hunting outfitters in Idaho.

Now why would you want to have an area where you will obviously go broke?   

I was able to get the additional area at no charge, usually you have to buy out an existing outfitter. I will be offering cougar/wolf combo hunts. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Prior to wolf introduction the outfitter number was steady, yes some quit but new ones started. I recently applied for an abandoned area in Idaho, I was the only outfitter to apply for that area. 10 years ago I applied for another area and there were 6 outfitters trying to get that same area. I recently heard that we've lost nearly half the hunting outfitters in Idaho.

Now why would you want to have an area where you will obviously go broke?   

I was able to get the additional area at no charge, usually you have to buy out an existing outfitter. I will be offering cougar/wolf combo hunts. 

Cool! The last guy should have thought of that.

[Special T]

special t is right about the predators moving the game into town. Around my house there was a decent  elk herd living a few miles behind me on the forest service. This year they were few miles the other way living by the highway and the dump! And no you cant hunt them there. Seen it in other places around coeur d alene too. elk and deer moving into town. They did not do this till the wolves starting showing up in the mountains. The deer always seemed to hang on the outskirsts of town for an easy meal i guess. Elk pattern really changed though

That's funny, because the predators move right into town with the prey, so how is that moving away from predators. I know of three different cougars and two bears that have been seen within 4 blocks of my house and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more. I've seen one of the cougars, two blocks away and It was seen once in our neighbor's driveway and once in my yard. Then a few blocks away there has been a couple smaller one's seen.  All animals go where their food is.

While this is true, it is the deer/elks only option is to move away from pressure. "In Town" is only marginaly safer than the woods, but if you can convince the deer and elk to go back to thier home i'm all ears on how to do it.

If i was a deer or elk, i'd hang out in the yard of the biggest redneck i could find... At least he would have a loaded gun and take any shot he could get on a wolf!