Wedge pack costs

[Special T]

It all comes down to economics.

Current ideology is to fund a program that balances a natural system, (void of man) to the greatest possibility.

The tipping point (IMO) is no longer a matter of a surplus harvest Vs. a predator pit. Instead, how low can harvests, access, and opportunity become and still keep people buying hunting lotto tickets and licenses?

Management thought non mgt is the new norm... How will they justify all those jobs if everything is supposed to balance itself out?

[Ridgeratt]

Week after next I get to come home for a while and have made an appointment with the wolf biologist in Colville.  I can talk to talk with the bio's as I have a degree in Vertebrate Zoology.  After having been a chairman of a local Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation chapter I leaned a lot about the politics of game management.  The most important thing that we can do in the short term is help the trappers like Paul do is locate and confirm new packs.  Once we have the pack count up we can get the wolves de-listed.   

One thing that happens with bio's working with a species is that they can "fall in love" with the animal they are studying.  I have seen this happen in other states with bio's and only one on one interaction will help this issue.  That is why I have made the appointment. 

East of 395 an amendment to the wolf plan needs to be requested IMO.  It is small but might get past the tree huggars.  That is that lethal force could be used to protect pets and "penned" live stock.  Also I will ask the question what is the impact on other endangered species in the federal de-listed area?   Is the department being opened up to lawsuits without a plan that takes into consideration of the wolves on the endangered species?

Bearpaw, if you would like to meet me PM me.

I ran into the bio during Muzzle Elk up there. He has gained a vast knowledge about the problem and was IMO brutally Honest.
A year and half ago I met him at a presentation here in Spokane and his learning curve has what is best call vertical.
If you do get a chance to talk to him see if he will show the you GPS tracking data that they had on the Alpha male they got a sat update every 6 hours and had a batch of dot's on a map.
I think you will find he is not enamoured with them as you may believe.

[villageidiot]

 The Okanogan has many more deer these days than 100 yrs. ago due to fire suppression.  Bitterbrush is the mule deers primary winter feed and before white man the Indians use to go to the Methow and fish and start fires to burn off the bitterbrush and trees so their horses would have plenty of grass to eat when they came back berry picking and fishing the next year.  Also, many fires were lightning caused.  Bitterbrush can not deal with fires at all.  It takes years to come back.  Now that white man has suppressed fires for so long all the hills that can support bitterbrush are doing so, thus providing winter feed for mule deer.   I read a book about an old settler in the Methow back when they first had cars which must have been aroound the 1920's or so.  He drove up from Methow and spotted a lone deer between Twisp and Winthrop and hadn't seen one all winter so drove all the way back home to get his gun to shoot it because he needed some meat.  That tells us there were very few deer during that time.  As you know you will see dozens of deer now on that same trek during the winter, although those numbers seem to be diminishing over the last 5 or 6 years.

[denali]

Stevens County Cattlemen's Association

Somehow WDFW thinks making people sign restrictive agreements about what they can do on their own land will solve the wolf problem. We don't agree.



Wolf kill: Will there have to be more?

By PHUONG LE

Associated Press

SEATTLE (AP) -- Taking aim from a helicopter flying over northeastern Washington state, a marksman last month killed the alpha male of a wolf pack that had repeatedly attacked a rancher's cattle. The shooting put an end to the so-called Wedge pack, but it did little to quell the controversy over wolves in the state.

The issue has been so explosive that state wildlife officials received death threats and the head of the Fish and Wildlife Commission warned the public at a recent hearing in Olympia on wolves that uniformed and undercover officers were in the room ready to act.

More conflicts between wolves and livestock are inevitable, officials say, as wolves in Washington recover, growing in number more quickly than expected. The animals numbered a handful in 2008, and are now estimated at between 80 and 100.

"What are we going to do so we don't have this again?" asked Steve Pozzanghera, a Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife regional director.

He said officials are trying to be proactive to prevent the need to kill wolves in the future. They plan to collar more wolves this winter to keep better track of them. They plan to ask the Legislature to beef up money to compensate livestock owners whose animals are killed by wolves. And they're urging livestock operators to sign agreements with the state to share the cost of using a broad range of non-lethal measures to prevent livestock-wolf conflicts.

So far, only one livestock owner has signed an agreement, with four to six others in the hopper -- underscoring the challenges the agency faces as it tries to recover the endangered native species while encouraging social tolerance of the wolves by minimizing livestock losses.

"We understand there is some resistance out there," said Pozzanghera, but the agency is committed to working with ranchers and cattlemen.

"The whole situation is really tragic, most of all because it could have been avoided," said Jasmine Minbashian, of the nonprofit Conservation Northwest, which supported the decision in the end to kill the wolf pack because the animals had become reliant on livestock.

"If you remove the pack without changing something on the ground, this situation is bound to repeat itself," she said.

The Stevens County Cattlemen's Association is urging its roughly 50 members not to sign those agreements. It wants the commission to remove gray wolves from the state endangered list in Eastern Washington in the near future.

"Our guys are willing to use these nonlethal methods ... The problem is these methods are not always effective," said the group's spokeswoman Jamie Henneman, noting the agreements address only symptoms. "The illness happens to be that we're oversaturated with wolves."

Grey wolves are protected as an endangered species throughout Washington state. The animals are federally listed as endangered only in the western two-thirds of the state. Removing the animals from the state endangered list could open the way to future wolf hunting.

While Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have been grappling with wolves in the past decade, Washington has dealt with wolves only in recent years. In 2008, a wolf pack was documented for the first time in 70 years. Now, there are eight confirmed packs, with four others suspected.

The killing of seven members of the Wedge Pack -- named for the area they inhabit along the Canadian border near Laurier -- has prompted an outcry from some wolf advocates. Some have criticized the owners of the Diamond M ranch for not taking enough non-lethal measures.

"As far as I know, we've done everything that they suggested might be effective," Bill McIrvin said during a recent Olympia hearing. McIrvin is one of the owners of the ranch, where wolves killed or injured at least 17 animals on both private and public land. The ranch employed cowboys, delayed the turnout of their cow-calf pairs until the animals were bigger and quickly removed injured cattle, state officials said.

Wildlife officials say they're working on new rules to compensate ranchers for losses, including for reduced weight gain or reduced pregnancy rates.

Ranchers who sign onto nonlethal agreements with WDFW would have priority for livestock compensation.

Sam Kayser, an Ellensburg cattle rancher, said he signed an agreement with the state because he knows wolves will eventually target his cattle and he wanted help.

"What are the wolves going to eat? They're going to eat elk. If the elk numbers go short, they're going to eat my cattle," said Kayser, whose cattle graze on thousands of acres of private land that he leases in central Washington.

"Fish and Wildlife (department) was trying to be proactive and I was trying to be a little proactive myself," he added.

The state is sharing the cost of a range rider who stays with the cattle to make sure they don't become prey to wolves.

Range riders have been used in other states to prevent wolf-livestock conflicts. A pilot project in Stevens County over the summer is testing the concept in this state. Officials have been working with a rancher there and will review the success of that project in coming months to see whether and how it can be duplicated elsewhere.

Kayser says he and other cattlemen saw the conflicts coming.

"If they're willing to try, I'm willing to try," Kayser said. "(But) I think it's putting off the eventuality of what's going to be."

[Special T]

I would love to see the details of the agreement.

[denali]

   I think I can sum it up: wolves are not the problem, you are.... sign here please 

[Special T]

Well If the agreement is  just, "we will split the cost of a range rider with you, for research and detering attacks" i doubt that the cattlemens association would be against it.   

Why would you want to work with an organisation that is not being honest with you? you have nothing to gain, but everything to lose.

[pianoman9701]

The Cattlemen's Association made their stand very clear, using scientific evidence and past results /impacts from the states of WY, MT, and ID. The WDFW didn't listen to them at all. As a matter of fact, seemed not to understand the depth of the chit-hole they'd get into with their plan. Were I a cattleman, I'd tell them to stick their agreement where the sun don't shine, much like the DFW said to them about their concerns for this outrageous wolf plan. This whole thing has been shoved down everyone's throats because they rushed to appease the greenies. Now they have to pay and it's going to cost them (sorry, Us) many multiple times their original estimates. Will the greenies step up to pay the bills? No, It's going to come out of PR funds and our license fees. Then, when that's all gone, the state (sorry, We) will be on the hook for the balance.

[Ridgeratt]

There's a petition in the People Place in Orient now.stop in and sign it.

[huntnphool]

The Cattlemen's Association made their stand very clear, using scientific evidence and past results /impacts from the states of WY, MT, and ID. The WDFW didn't listen to them at all. As a matter of fact, seemed not to understand the depth of the chit-hole they'd get into with their plan. Were I a cattleman, I'd tell them to stick their agreement where the sun don't shine, much like the DFW said to them about their concerns for this outrageous wolf plan. This whole thing has been shoved down everyone's throats because they rushed to appease the greenies. Now they have to pay and it's going to cost them (sorry, Us) many multiple times their original estimates. Will the greenies step up to pay the bills? No, It's going to come out of PR funds and our license fees. Then, when that's all gone, the state (sorry, We) will be on the hook for the balance.

+1, exactly!!!

[Ridgeratt]

Wolf management will require cooperation, more money

This came the the Spokesman review:

Posted by Rich
Oct. 23, 2012 6:07 a.m.  •
 
ENDANGERED SPECIES — Wolves continue to consume, among other things, a lot of time, money and attention in Washington.

Read on for an Associated Press report that rounds up what state Fish and Wildlife officials are doing and proposing as we head into winter, a critical time for wildlife as well as for wildlife officials seeking funding from the Legislature.



By PHUONG LE

Associated Press
SEATTLE — Taking aim from a helicopter flying over northeastern Washington state, a marksman last month killed the alpha male of a wolf pack that had repeatedly attacked a rancher's cattle. The shooting put an end to the so-called Wedge pack, but it did little to quell the controversy over wolves in the state.

The issue has been so explosive that state wildlife officials received death threats and the head of the Fish and Wildlife Commission warned the public at a recent hearing in Olympia on wolves that uniformed and undercover officers were in the room ready to act.

More conflicts between wolves and livestock are inevitable, officials say, as wolves in Washington recover, growing in number more quickly than expected. The animals numbered a handful in 2008, and are now estimated at between 80 and 100.

“What are we going to do so we don't have this again?” asked Steve Pozzanghera, a Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife regional director.

He said officials are trying to be proactive to prevent the need to kill wolves in the future. They plan to collar more wolves this winter to keep better track of them. They plan to ask the Legislature to beef up money to compensate livestock owners whose animals are killed by wolves. And they're urging livestock operators to sign agreements with the state to share the cost of using a broad range of non-lethal measures to prevent livestock-wolf conflicts.

So far, only one livestock owner has signed an agreement, with four to six others in the hopper - underscoring the challenges the agency faces as it tries to recover the endangered native species while encouraging social tolerance of the wolves by minimizing livestock losses.

“We understand there is some resistance out there,” said Pozzanghera, but the agency is committed to working with ranchers and cattlemen.

“The whole situation is really tragic, most of all because it could have been avoided,” said Jasmine Minbashian, of the nonprofit Conservation Northwest, which supported the decision in the end to kill the wolf pack because the animals had become reliant on livestock.

“If you remove the pack without changing something on the ground, this situation is bound to repeat itself,” she said.

The Stevens County Cattlemen's Association is urging its roughly 50 members not to sign those agreements. It wants the commission to remove gray wolves from the state endangered list in Eastern Washington in the near future.

“Our guys are willing to use these nonlethal methods … The problem is these methods are not always effective,” said the group's spokeswoman Jamie Henneman, noting the agreements address only symptoms. “The illness happens to be that we're oversaturated with wolves.”

Grey wolves are protected as an endangered species throughout Washington state. The animals are federally listed as endangered only in the western two-thirds of the state. Removing the animals from the state endangered list could open the way to future wolf hunting.

While Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have been grappling with wolves in the past decade, Washington has dealt with wolves only in recent years. In 2008, a wolf pack was documented for the first time in 70 years. Now, there are eight confirmed packs, with four others suspected.

The killing of seven members of the Wedge Pack - named for the area they inhabit along the Canadian border near Laurier - has prompted an outcry from some wolf advocates. Some have criticized the owners of the Diamond M ranch for not taking enough non-lethal measures.

“As far as I know, we've done everything that they suggested might be effective,” Bill McIrvin said during a recent Olympia hearing. McIrvin is one of the owners of the ranch, where wolves killed or injured at least 17 animals on both private and public land. The ranch employed cowboys, delayed the turnout of their cow-calf pairs until the animals were bigger and quickly removed injured cattle, state officials said.

Wildlife officials say they're working on new rules to compensate ranchers for losses, including for reduced weight gain or reduced pregnancy rates.

Ranchers who sign onto nonlethal agreements with WDFW would have priority for livestock compensation.

Sam Kayser, an Ellensburg cattle rancher, said he signed an agreement with the state because he knows wolves will eventually target his cattle and he wanted help.

“What are the wolves going to eat? They're going to eat elk. If the elk numbers go short, they're going to eat my cattle,” said Kayser, whose cattle graze on thousands of acres of private land that he leases in central Washington.

“Fish and Wildlife (department) was trying to be proactive and I was trying to be a little proactive myself,” he added.

The state is sharing the cost of a range rider who stays with the cattle to make sure they don't become prey to wolves.

Range riders have been used in other states to prevent wolf-livestock conflicts. A pilot project in Stevens County over the summer is testing the concept in this state. Officials have been working with a rancher there and will review the success of that project in coming months to see whether and how it can be duplicated elsewhere.

Kayser says he and other cattlemen saw the conflicts coming.

“If they're willing to try, I'm willing to try,” Kayser said. “(But) I think it's putting off the eventuality of what's going to be.”

[huntnphool]

More conflicts between wolves and livestock are inevitable, officials say, as wolves in Washington recover, growing in number more quickly than expected.

BS, growing in more number than WHO expected? Every one of us hunters, at those sorry excuse for meetings they had, expected higher numbers than they put up in their powerpoint presentation. The commision even questioned their BS fabricated numbers, yet they agreed to "the plan".

[Ridgeratt]

Until western Washington meets the managment goals they (WDFW) will continue to shoot wolves over here as well.

[flatbkman]

The whole premiss of needing a set amount of wolves, or wolf packs in multiple areas is wrong to begin with. To follow that logic, there should be no phesant hunting on the east side until a natural occuring population exisits on the west side, there should be no salmon fishing in Washington until every stream and river has a population of them, there should be no Mountian Quail hunting anywhere in the state, etc. If there is a stable or growing population on the eastside they need to be managed and harvested.

[Boss .300 winmag]